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	<title>Comments for UrbanReviewSTL</title>
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	<link>http://urbanreviewstl.com</link>
	<description>Planning &#124; Policy &#124; Politics &#124; Est 2004</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 22 Feb 2012 15:13:00 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on Planning Commission To Hear Appeal On Denial Of Permit To Raze Historic Pevely Dairy (Update w/Agenda) by Msrdls</title>
		<link>http://urbanreviewstl.com/2012/02/planning-commission-to-hear-appeal-on-denial-of-permit-to-raze-historic-pevely-dairy/comment-page-1/#comment-47476</link>
		<dc:creator>Msrdls</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Feb 2012 15:13:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://urbanreviewstl.com/?p=19279#comment-47476</guid>
		<description>A buiding&#039;s &quot;architectural significance&quot;  is certainly subjective. I moved to STL from Santa Monica, where I lived across the street from a &quot;famous&quot; architect who &quot;embellished&quot; the exterior of his home with chain link fencing hung at odd angles on fence post frames. The home was decorated much like a kid decorates a christmas tree, grabbing ornaments one after the other, giving the impression that little if any thought was given to the overall. It disgusted me. But this guy is highly esteemed in architectural circles, having designed buidings shaped like bincoulars and other unusual forms. But you know what? He had the right to destroy the conservative image of our Santa Monica neighborhood--because he owned his house and property. You&#039;ll say, I&#039;m sure, that SLU doesn&#039;t have the &quot;right&quot; because the building is listed as historic, as if this should dictate to its future, ad infinitum. Well, IMHO, it doesn&#039;t. Nothing should held together with bricks and mortar should be held as sancrosanct and dedicated ad majorem Dei gloriam! And your comment that SLU &#039;...owns other vacant, ...tax free land directly across the street&#039; does not strengthen your argument, IMHO. Again, they own the land, their deep pockets purchased the land....and they should control its destiny. Looks as if the eminent domain sign may have reversed a long-standing signage restriction in STL--which suggests that &quot;anything&quot; is subject to review and change. One last comment:  I am a strucural engineer, and I have worked with teams that have provided seismic upgrades to buildings  similar to the Pevely building. The column/spandrel beam design does not meet current standards for seismic design (not just because of column/beam attachment, but for several other reasons including inadequate/undersized footing design, questionable soils, the list is likely long and quite costly to address). And I wonder (even out loud sometimes) why SLU or anyone else would want to place their employees in such an environment that, at the least, will likely be seriously compromised during a major seismic event. To upgrade that building for seismic resistance to meet current codes would be a substantial effort and it would represent a financial challenge to anyone, including SLU who appears to have really deep pockets. And to do so would MODIFY its current facade. Your comment that SLU&#039;s holdings are &quot;tax free&quot; really has nothing to do with this topic. That&#039;s an issue that needs to be addressed in a different courtroom...at a different time. And finally.....you&#039;ll notice in my initial post that I didn&#039;t call you a name. &quot;Snarky&quot; describes your intent, not your person.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A buiding&#8217;s &#8220;architectural significance&#8221;  is certainly subjective. I moved to STL from Santa Monica, where I lived across the street from a &#8220;famous&#8221; architect who &#8220;embellished&#8221; the exterior of his home with chain link fencing hung at odd angles on fence post frames. The home was decorated much like a kid decorates a christmas tree, grabbing ornaments one after the other, giving the impression that little if any thought was given to the overall. It disgusted me. But this guy is highly esteemed in architectural circles, having designed buidings shaped like bincoulars and other unusual forms. But you know what? He had the right to destroy the conservative image of our Santa Monica neighborhood&#8211;because he owned his house and property. You&#8217;ll say, I&#8217;m sure, that SLU doesn&#8217;t have the &#8220;right&#8221; because the building is listed as historic, as if this should dictate to its future, ad infinitum. Well, IMHO, it doesn&#8217;t. Nothing should held together with bricks and mortar should be held as sancrosanct and dedicated ad majorem Dei gloriam! And your comment that SLU &#8216;&#8230;owns other vacant, &#8230;tax free land directly across the street&#8217; does not strengthen your argument, IMHO. Again, they own the land, their deep pockets purchased the land&#8230;.and they should control its destiny. Looks as if the eminent domain sign may have reversed a long-standing signage restriction in STL&#8211;which suggests that &#8220;anything&#8221; is subject to review and change. One last comment:  I am a strucural engineer, and I have worked with teams that have provided seismic upgrades to buildings  similar to the Pevely building. The column/spandrel beam design does not meet current standards for seismic design (not just because of column/beam attachment, but for several other reasons including inadequate/undersized footing design, questionable soils, the list is likely long and quite costly to address). And I wonder (even out loud sometimes) why SLU or anyone else would want to place their employees in such an environment that, at the least, will likely be seriously compromised during a major seismic event. To upgrade that building for seismic resistance to meet current codes would be a substantial effort and it would represent a financial challenge to anyone, including SLU who appears to have really deep pockets. And to do so would MODIFY its current facade. Your comment that SLU&#8217;s holdings are &#8220;tax free&#8221; really has nothing to do with this topic. That&#8217;s an issue that needs to be addressed in a different courtroom&#8230;at a different time. And finally&#8230;..you&#8217;ll notice in my initial post that I didn&#8217;t call you a name. &#8220;Snarky&#8221; describes your intent, not your person.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Planning Commission To Hear Appeal On Denial Of Permit To Raze Historic Pevely Dairy (Update w/Agenda) by Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://urbanreviewstl.com/2012/02/planning-commission-to-hear-appeal-on-denial-of-permit-to-raze-historic-pevely-dairy/comment-page-1/#comment-47475</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Feb 2012 13:55:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://urbanreviewstl.com/?p=19279#comment-47475</guid>
		<description>The fact that SLU can build elsewhere really isn&#039;t relevent to this discussion.  That&#039;s a straw argument that can be made about pretty much anyone wanting to build pretty much anything pretty much anywhere (NIMBY).  I agree, it&#039;s frustrating to watch SLU de-densify the area, much like how it&#039;s frustrating to watch McKee&#039;s properties being torn down on the north side, but the reality is that what really drives density is land values, and both McKee and SLU are taking advantage of low transaction prices to amass large tracts that few, if any, other buyers appear to be interested in.  If you/we want more reuse of historic structures, it&#039;s not that complicated, you/we need to find more users interested in buying or leasing historic buildings - duh!

I don&#039;t think that anyone is disputing the facts in the nomination.  The real issue is whether the current owners (SLU) can or want to make the effort to reuse the existing structure(s) versus starting over with bare ground - it&#039;s essentially a battle of experts with differing perspectives, different opinions and different conclusions.  And, on a larger scale, is how, as a city, we can and should balance &quot;preserving&quot; our huge building stock from the first half of the 20th century as we move forward into the 21st century, in a city with a very different economic base and a much smaller population.  Vacant buildings don&#039;t pay the freight, not to their owners, and not to city&#039;s tax base.

EVERY old building has a history and every old building creates a sense of place, just from being someplace for decades - we expect to see it there and we&#039;re comfortable with its presence, it&#039;s a known and it&#039;s usually comfortable.  The challenge comes down to remaining relevent - can the old structure continue in its original use?  Or, can it be REASONABLY be modified to serve a new purpose?  And yes, money and budget does play a big role in that discussion - if you&#039;re not the one writing the checks, it&#039;s a whole lot easier to be saying what &quot;should&quot; be happening.  Unfortunately, money talks when it comes to making construction reality.  And, when it comes to this complex, I don&#039;t know enough to make an educated decision about how viable reuse may or may not be.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The fact that SLU can build elsewhere really isn&#8217;t relevent to this discussion.  That&#8217;s a straw argument that can be made about pretty much anyone wanting to build pretty much anything pretty much anywhere (NIMBY).  I agree, it&#8217;s frustrating to watch SLU de-densify the area, much like how it&#8217;s frustrating to watch McKee&#8217;s properties being torn down on the north side, but the reality is that what really drives density is land values, and both McKee and SLU are taking advantage of low transaction prices to amass large tracts that few, if any, other buyers appear to be interested in.  If you/we want more reuse of historic structures, it&#8217;s not that complicated, you/we need to find more users interested in buying or leasing historic buildings &#8211; duh!</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think that anyone is disputing the facts in the nomination.  The real issue is whether the current owners (SLU) can or want to make the effort to reuse the existing structure(s) versus starting over with bare ground &#8211; it&#8217;s essentially a battle of experts with differing perspectives, different opinions and different conclusions.  And, on a larger scale, is how, as a city, we can and should balance &#8220;preserving&#8221; our huge building stock from the first half of the 20th century as we move forward into the 21st century, in a city with a very different economic base and a much smaller population.  Vacant buildings don&#8217;t pay the freight, not to their owners, and not to city&#8217;s tax base.</p>
<p>EVERY old building has a history and every old building creates a sense of place, just from being someplace for decades &#8211; we expect to see it there and we&#8217;re comfortable with its presence, it&#8217;s a known and it&#8217;s usually comfortable.  The challenge comes down to remaining relevent &#8211; can the old structure continue in its original use?  Or, can it be REASONABLY be modified to serve a new purpose?  And yes, money and budget does play a big role in that discussion &#8211; if you&#8217;re not the one writing the checks, it&#8217;s a whole lot easier to be saying what &#8220;should&#8221; be happening.  Unfortunately, money talks when it comes to making construction reality.  And, when it comes to this complex, I don&#8217;t know enough to make an educated decision about how viable reuse may or may not be. </p>
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		<title>Comment on St. Louis Question: Answer Depend On If You Attended High School Here by Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://urbanreviewstl.com/2012/02/st-louis-question-answer-depend-on-if-you-attended-high-school-here/comment-page-1/#comment-47474</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Feb 2012 13:15:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://urbanreviewstl.com/?p=19262#comment-47474</guid>
		<description> In the pie graphs, you should make all the positive responses (Great question/Just an icebreaker) in warm colors (red/yellow) and all the negative responses in cool colors (green/blue). Or the reverse, the important thing is that the overall balance is easy to distinguish. Right now it&#039;s not. The legend at the bottom of the graph should be ordered accordingly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p> In the pie graphs, you should make all the positive responses (Great question/Just an icebreaker) in warm colors (red/yellow) and all the negative responses in cool colors (green/blue). Or the reverse, the important thing is that the overall balance is easy to distinguish. Right now it&#8217;s not. The legend at the bottom of the graph should be ordered accordingly.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Planning Commission To Hear Appeal On Denial Of Permit To Raze Historic Pevely Dairy (Update w/Agenda) by Adam</title>
		<link>http://urbanreviewstl.com/2012/02/planning-commission-to-hear-appeal-on-denial-of-permit-to-raze-historic-pevely-dairy/comment-page-1/#comment-47473</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Feb 2012 05:49:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://urbanreviewstl.com/?p=19279#comment-47473</guid>
		<description>well if you have some sort of argument that&#039;s more substantial than your opinion let&#039;s hear it. perhaps you could actually respond to a couple of my points, such as the fact that Pevely&#039;s national register status, which provides for preservation review, is not based solely on the buildings age. in fact, it&#039;s architecture was indeed a factor in it&#039;s nomination and listing (it seems the architectural historians who evaluate the nominations disagree with your expert opinion). or maybe you could address SLU&#039;s expansive, vacant, tax-free land holdings and give me a reason as to why they can&#039;t build on that giant vacant lot (which they own) directly across the street. or i suppose you could just call me more names. that&#039;s pretty convincing too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>well if you have some sort of argument that&#8217;s more substantial than your opinion let&#8217;s hear it. perhaps you could actually respond to a couple of my points, such as the fact that Pevely&#8217;s national register status, which provides for preservation review, is not based solely on the buildings age. in fact, it&#8217;s architecture was indeed a factor in it&#8217;s nomination and listing (it seems the architectural historians who evaluate the nominations disagree with your expert opinion). or maybe you could address SLU&#8217;s expansive, vacant, tax-free land holdings and give me a reason as to why they can&#8217;t build on that giant vacant lot (which they own) directly across the street. or i suppose you could just call me more names. that&#8217;s pretty convincing too.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Poor Pedestrian Accessibly at Saint Louis (Panera) Bread Co on Chippewa St. at Lansdowne Ave by Jason Stokes</title>
		<link>http://urbanreviewstl.com/2012/02/poor-pedestrian-accessibly-at-saint-louis-panera-bread-co-on-chippewa-st-at-lansdowne-ave/comment-page-1/#comment-47472</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Stokes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Feb 2012 04:19:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://urbanreviewstl.com/?p=19219#comment-47472</guid>
		<description>If only there was a way to create a wheelchair ramp. I wish we had the technology. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If only there was a way to create a wheelchair ramp. I wish we had the technology. <img src='http://urbanreviewstl.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>Comment on Planning Commission To Hear Appeal On Denial Of Permit To Raze Historic Pevely Dairy (Update w/Agenda) by Imran</title>
		<link>http://urbanreviewstl.com/2012/02/planning-commission-to-hear-appeal-on-denial-of-permit-to-raze-historic-pevely-dairy/comment-page-1/#comment-47471</link>
		<dc:creator>Imran</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Feb 2012 03:14:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://urbanreviewstl.com/?p=19279#comment-47471</guid>
		<description>I plan to be there. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I plan to be there.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Planning Commission To Hear Appeal On Denial Of Permit To Raze Historic Pevely Dairy (Update w/Agenda) by Msrdls</title>
		<link>http://urbanreviewstl.com/2012/02/planning-commission-to-hear-appeal-on-denial-of-permit-to-raze-historic-pevely-dairy/comment-page-1/#comment-47470</link>
		<dc:creator>Msrdls</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Feb 2012 00:48:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://urbanreviewstl.com/?p=19279#comment-47470</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re a snarky one too! If someone disagrees with a purist, the worst always emerges. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re a snarky one too! If someone disagrees with a purist, the worst always emerges.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Planning Commission To Hear Appeal On Denial Of Permit To Raze Historic Pevely Dairy (Update w/Agenda) by Adam</title>
		<link>http://urbanreviewstl.com/2012/02/planning-commission-to-hear-appeal-on-denial-of-permit-to-raze-historic-pevely-dairy/comment-page-1/#comment-47469</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Feb 2012 00:09:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://urbanreviewstl.com/?p=19279#comment-47469</guid>
		<description>the national register designation is not based solely on age. why don&#039;t you try reading the nomination so you know what you&#039;re talking about. also, lived out INTENDED use =/= outlived all usefulness. if SLU had nowhere else to build their facility i would understand and support their position. as it is they own enough vacant land -- much of it adjacent to the Pevely site -- to build 10 ambulatory centers (that&#039;s not even an exaggeration). there is no legitimate excuse for demolition of the Pevely. (and if there were one, don&#039;t you think SLU would have given it by now?)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>the national register designation is not based solely on age. why don&#8217;t you try reading the nomination so you know what you&#8217;re talking about. also, lived out INTENDED use =/= outlived all usefulness. if SLU had nowhere else to build their facility i would understand and support their position. as it is they own enough vacant land &#8212; much of it adjacent to the Pevely site &#8212; to build 10 ambulatory centers (that&#8217;s not even an exaggeration). there is no legitimate excuse for demolition of the Pevely. (and if there were one, don&#8217;t you think SLU would have given it by now?)</p>
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		<title>Comment on Planning Commission To Hear Appeal On Denial Of Permit To Raze Historic Pevely Dairy (Update w/Agenda) by Adam</title>
		<link>http://urbanreviewstl.com/2012/02/planning-commission-to-hear-appeal-on-denial-of-permit-to-raze-historic-pevely-dairy/comment-page-1/#comment-47468</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Feb 2012 00:05:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://urbanreviewstl.com/?p=19279#comment-47468</guid>
		<description> the ground-level windows have been bricked-in. they can be restored when the building is rehabbed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p> the ground-level windows have been bricked-in. they can be restored when the building is rehabbed.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Poor Pedestrian Accessibly at Saint Louis (Panera) Bread Co on Chippewa St. at Lansdowne Ave by Gina</title>
		<link>http://urbanreviewstl.com/2012/02/poor-pedestrian-accessibly-at-saint-louis-panera-bread-co-on-chippewa-st-at-lansdowne-ave/comment-page-1/#comment-47467</link>
		<dc:creator>Gina</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Feb 2012 20:51:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://urbanreviewstl.com/?p=19219#comment-47467</guid>
		<description>No curb ramps at the corner of Lansdowne?  Crosswalks can exist whether marked or not... </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No curb ramps at the corner of Lansdowne?  Crosswalks can exist whether marked or not&#8230; </p>
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		<title>Comment on Planning Commission To Hear Appeal On Denial Of Permit To Raze Historic Pevely Dairy (Update w/Agenda) by Douglas Duckworth</title>
		<link>http://urbanreviewstl.com/2012/02/planning-commission-to-hear-appeal-on-denial-of-permit-to-raze-historic-pevely-dairy/comment-page-1/#comment-47466</link>
		<dc:creator>Douglas Duckworth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Feb 2012 20:24:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://urbanreviewstl.com/?p=19279#comment-47466</guid>
		<description>Steve never said people should be disruptive at the meeting.   He said he hopes people who support reuse of the building would attend.

Packing meetings is effective.  It was used a lot by Bruce Ratner in Brooklyn as well as with McKee in Saint Louis.  If the majority of attendees testify for a position it&#039;s more likely to be approved than not.  How that message is conveyed is important, however again Steve isn&#039;t calling for Tea Party tactics.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve never said people should be disruptive at the meeting.   He said he hopes people who support reuse of the building would attend.</p>
<p>Packing meetings is effective.  It was used a lot by Bruce Ratner in Brooklyn as well as with McKee in Saint Louis.  If the majority of attendees testify for a position it&#8217;s more likely to be approved than not.  How that message is conveyed is important, however again Steve isn&#8217;t calling for Tea Party tactics. </p>
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		<title>Comment on Poor Pedestrian Accessibly at Saint Louis (Panera) Bread Co on Chippewa St. at Lansdowne Ave by Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://urbanreviewstl.com/2012/02/poor-pedestrian-accessibly-at-saint-louis-panera-bread-co-on-chippewa-st-at-lansdowne-ave/comment-page-1/#comment-47465</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Feb 2012 17:57:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://urbanreviewstl.com/?p=19219#comment-47465</guid>
		<description>And the reason I&#039;ve been given by the city is that they don&#039;t like doing marked crosswalks if there aren&#039;t appropriate wheelchair ramps.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And the reason I&#8217;ve been given by the city is that they don&#8217;t like doing marked crosswalks if there aren&#8217;t appropriate wheelchair ramps.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Poor Pedestrian Accessibly at Saint Louis (Panera) Bread Co on Chippewa St. at Lansdowne Ave by Jason Stokes</title>
		<link>http://urbanreviewstl.com/2012/02/poor-pedestrian-accessibly-at-saint-louis-panera-bread-co-on-chippewa-st-at-lansdowne-ave/comment-page-1/#comment-47464</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Stokes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Feb 2012 17:34:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://urbanreviewstl.com/?p=19219#comment-47464</guid>
		<description>Using the parking lot is crap. I meant &quot;technically accessible&quot; because yes, technically, I can go from A-B while pushing the stroller, but it&#039;s awful, and makes me fear getting hit by some moron on their cell phone busting to the drive-through (which I also opposed).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Using the parking lot is crap. I meant &#8220;technically accessible&#8221; because yes, technically, I can go from A-B while pushing the stroller, but it&#8217;s awful, and makes me fear getting hit by some moron on their cell phone busting to the drive-through (which I also opposed).</p>
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		<title>Comment on Poor Pedestrian Accessibly at Saint Louis (Panera) Bread Co on Chippewa St. at Lansdowne Ave by Jason Stokes</title>
		<link>http://urbanreviewstl.com/2012/02/poor-pedestrian-accessibly-at-saint-louis-panera-bread-co-on-chippewa-st-at-lansdowne-ave/comment-page-1/#comment-47463</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Stokes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Feb 2012 17:33:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://urbanreviewstl.com/?p=19219#comment-47463</guid>
		<description>Interestingly, one can cross Chippewa there, but there&#039;s no legal, crosswalked way to cross over from the Bread Co to the Starbucks. Lansdowne has no crosswalk either way. 

As someone who enjoys Starbucks and lives north of this intersection, it&#039;s usually a mad dash across the street with dog or baby in town, hoping I don&#039;t get creamed by a car. Lovely.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interestingly, one can cross Chippewa there, but there&#8217;s no legal, crosswalked way to cross over from the Bread Co to the Starbucks. Lansdowne has no crosswalk either way. </p>
<p>As someone who enjoys Starbucks and lives north of this intersection, it&#8217;s usually a mad dash across the street with dog or baby in town, hoping I don&#8217;t get creamed by a car. Lovely.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Planning Commission To Hear Appeal On Denial Of Permit To Raze Historic Pevely Dairy (Update w/Agenda) by Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://urbanreviewstl.com/2012/02/planning-commission-to-hear-appeal-on-denial-of-permit-to-raze-historic-pevely-dairy/comment-page-1/#comment-47462</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Feb 2012 16:39:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://urbanreviewstl.com/?p=19279#comment-47462</guid>
		<description>
Not trying to be sanctimonious, just trying to help people be better advocates for their positions.  I&#039;ve appeared before elected and appointed boards and I&#039;ve served on appointed and elected boards.  I&#039;ve seen what works well and what doesn&#039;t.  Things like having people sign preprinted postcards or to sign poorly-worded &quot;petitions&quot; carry little value and can even spur false hopes.  Making respectful, reasoned arguments are the best way to advocate your position, as is getting involved early and working to be a part of the process.  And &quot;packing&quot; a room, especially to the point where it disrupts a board&#039;s ability to conduct its business, IS in many cases, counterproductive.

The Planing Commission has a role to play in this decision, but like any other board, it is a limited role and one that is legally limited.  Governmental decision making many times moves at a glacial pace, which can be frustrating for people who arn&#039;t familiar with the process.  I have an opinion on this issue, but I&#039;m more passionate about another one, which is why my energies will be focused on that meeting of another quasi-public board.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not trying to be sanctimonious, just trying to help people be better advocates for their positions.  I&#8217;ve appeared before elected and appointed boards and I&#8217;ve served on appointed and elected boards.  I&#8217;ve seen what works well and what doesn&#8217;t.  Things like having people sign preprinted postcards or to sign poorly-worded &#8220;petitions&#8221; carry little value and can even spur false hopes.  Making respectful, reasoned arguments are the best way to advocate your position, as is getting involved early and working to be a part of the process.  And &#8220;packing&#8221; a room, especially to the point where it disrupts a board&#8217;s ability to conduct its business, IS in many cases, counterproductive.</p>
<p>The Planing Commission has a role to play in this decision, but like any other board, it is a limited role and one that is legally limited.  Governmental decision making many times moves at a glacial pace, which can be frustrating for people who arn&#8217;t familiar with the process.  I have an opinion on this issue, but I&#8217;m more passionate about another one, which is why my energies will be focused on that meeting of another quasi-public board.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Planning Commission To Hear Appeal On Denial Of Permit To Raze Historic Pevely Dairy (Update w/Agenda) by Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://urbanreviewstl.com/2012/02/planning-commission-to-hear-appeal-on-denial-of-permit-to-raze-historic-pevely-dairy/comment-page-1/#comment-47461</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Feb 2012 16:16:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://urbanreviewstl.com/?p=19279#comment-47461</guid>
		<description>Steve, this building has a gigantic blank wall on the ground level, isn&#039;t that exactly what you object to in all your other posts?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve, this building has a gigantic blank wall on the ground level, isn&#8217;t that exactly what you object to in all your other posts?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Planning Commission To Hear Appeal On Denial Of Permit To Raze Historic Pevely Dairy (Update w/Agenda) by Steve Patterson</title>
		<link>http://urbanreviewstl.com/2012/02/planning-commission-to-hear-appeal-on-denial-of-permit-to-raze-historic-pevely-dairy/comment-page-1/#comment-47460</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Patterson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Feb 2012 15:18:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://urbanreviewstl.com/?p=19279#comment-47460</guid>
		<description>Fill the seats with supporters and have 1-2 speakers can be very effective. Empty seats is interpreted as nobody cares. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fill the seats with supporters and have 1-2 speakers can be very effective. Empty seats is interpreted as nobody cares.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Planning Commission To Hear Appeal On Denial Of Permit To Raze Historic Pevely Dairy (Update w/Agenda) by Guest</title>
		<link>http://urbanreviewstl.com/2012/02/planning-commission-to-hear-appeal-on-denial-of-permit-to-raze-historic-pevely-dairy/comment-page-1/#comment-47459</link>
		<dc:creator>Guest</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Feb 2012 14:51:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://urbanreviewstl.com/?p=19279#comment-47459</guid>
		<description>I took the comments of packing the room with supporters as packing the room with people who will make rational arguments in support of their position and being respectful of the process.

I don&#039;t get why you&#039;re always so sanctimonious.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I took the comments of packing the room with supporters as packing the room with people who will make rational arguments in support of their position and being respectful of the process.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t get why you&#8217;re always so sanctimonious.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Planning Commission To Hear Appeal On Denial Of Permit To Raze Historic Pevely Dairy (Update w/Agenda) by Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://urbanreviewstl.com/2012/02/planning-commission-to-hear-appeal-on-denial-of-permit-to-raze-historic-pevely-dairy/comment-page-1/#comment-47458</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Feb 2012 14:40:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://urbanreviewstl.com/?p=19279#comment-47458</guid>
		<description>No, I&#039;ll be at a different meeting.  Bigger picture is your perception that it is somehow important to &quot;pack&quot; any meeting with supporters.  Having been on both sides, I can see the appeal of &quot;storming the gates&quot;, but the reality is that packing a meeting room really isn&#039;t that effective.  This isn&#039;t a popularity contest, this is an issue that must be decided within the limits of the board or commission.  The most effective ways of getting a positive outcome are to have some people show up in support, make reasoned, rational arguments in support of your position and to be respectful of the process.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, I&#8217;ll be at a different meeting.  Bigger picture is your perception that it is somehow important to &#8220;pack&#8221; any meeting with supporters.  Having been on both sides, I can see the appeal of &#8220;storming the gates&#8221;, but the reality is that packing a meeting room really isn&#8217;t that effective.  This isn&#8217;t a popularity contest, this is an issue that must be decided within the limits of the board or commission.  The most effective ways of getting a positive outcome are to have some people show up in support, make reasoned, rational arguments in support of your position and to be respectful of the process.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Poor Pedestrian Accessibly at Saint Louis (Panera) Bread Co on Chippewa St. at Lansdowne Ave by Steve Patterson</title>
		<link>http://urbanreviewstl.com/2012/02/poor-pedestrian-accessibly-at-saint-louis-panera-bread-co-on-chippewa-st-at-lansdowne-ave/comment-page-1/#comment-47457</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Patterson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Feb 2012 14:25:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://urbanreviewstl.com/?p=19219#comment-47457</guid>
		<description>The successor to Dr. Dee in the office on the disabled was David Newburger , which is under the health department. Lyle Manniger is the head of plan review within the building division. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The successor to Dr. Dee in the office on the disabled was David Newburger , which is under the health department. Lyle Manniger is the head of plan review within the building division.</p>
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