Today the city’s Board of Adjustment upheld the earlier decision to grant a conditional use permit to allow a drive-thru to McDonald’s on the former Sears site.
I’ve got a lot of things I want to say but I’ve pledged not to use that kind of language here. So, I’ll just say this for now:
With development like this, I have serious reservations about the ability of the City of St. Louis to reach its full potential.
– Steve
Currently there are "20 comments" on this Article:
Great (dripping sarcasm). A refugee getting run over or mugged in the McD’s parking lot or drive way, fresh out out his or her English class next door, will make a wonderful news story. Bravo, STL. Is this really the end of the line as this goes?
I think it was a foregone conclusion that the McDs was going in that location, and was going to have a drive-through. The opportunity I think those that oppose the drive-through missed was in working with McDs, and the City, to develop a plan for an acceptable design with a drive-through. I saw better plans come out of this discussion, but I think the focus on the drive-through issue hurt those opposing it. If they had channeled their energy at drive-through mitigation, they might have ended-up with a better design than what they may now get. It may not be too late for all interested parties to come together and work on a highly urban design that can be accepted by McDs neighbors, if the interested parties will work together.
“It may not be too late for all interested parties to come together and work on a highly urban design that can be accepted by McDs neighbors, if the interested parties will work together.”
In St. Louis!!???
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
Travis-you obviously don’t understand the whole idea of aldermanic courtesy.
Wasn’t there only one elected official who spoke out against this proposal?
Let’s see…2010 is only a few years away. And the north side has been gaining in population…
During the next round aldermanic musical chairs, ooops, I mean ward redistricting, look for the 20th ward to be moving back to north St. Louis ….
Something is better than nothing! I mean, come on, we should be grateful McDonald’s even WANTS to be in OUR city… let alone on a strip like S. Grand… whatever it must look like. The residents can just pick up the daily trash… it’s good exercise.
Whatever our political and business leaders must do to get and keep business in this city is cool by me. Who are we to tell them how we want this city to look and grow ???????
*******************
On a more serious note – For those of us who are willing to put the good of the people and this city before our own pre-pubescent egos and self-serving ways of doing business, please consider running for political office or getting on a public commission. It’s time.
Public Commissions are patronage positions. We will not have independent, objective appointees until we have independent, objective elected leaders. Ultimately, politicians have to appoint people they can “control” to some degree or another. I would guess that’s why the Mayor’s deputy stood in the corner of the chambers during the Board of Adjustment hearing and deliberations.
The residents, the local businesses, and the city all working together has nothing to do with the concept of Aldermanic courtesy. It might be a bit naive and idealistic for me to want to see the stakeholders to work together, but that is the only way positive change can occur with buy-in from the community-at-large. I’m not some Pollyanna asking “Can’t we all just get along.” I recognize and respect the fact that stakeholders have different agendas, may hate one another, and may not like having to working with eachother. But the best way to have a voice in the discussion is by working together. At least that way you can mitigate the extent of those elements of those elements you are against, and perhaps through compromise, even eliminate them. What’s that adage about honey and flies? I think you get my point.
Why does John Steffen want to destroy the city of St. Louis?
He’s the man behind this plan, behind Sullivan Place, and possibly behind the destruction of the Clemens House as well.
Let him suffer with Ald. Florida — don’t just go after her alone. Recall her and you’ll get another Pyramid pawn — the system itself is the problem. Then again, it’s easy to pick on a female politician and hard to fight a popular rich developer.
If businesses whose objectives are inapposite to those of residents have the support of the alderman, what incentive is there to “meet and confer.” Until the alderman truly represents the interests of the represented and can be held accountable in some fashion for not doing so, none.
Pyramid is not the problem. They are trying to do business just like everyone else. They apparently know what makes them money and are doing their best to put food on the table for their kids and their employees. The only people to blame is the board and Florida for not adhering to the zoning ordinances for this particular lot. Now that we are going to have an empty McDonalds on our hands, its up to everyone now to put pressure on the remaining parties to make sure something is done about it.
I do have to agree with Steve though about the lack of forward thinking and civic absentmindedness that is going on in the ranks.
Good development could put money in Steffen’s pocket and food on the table. The “it’s just business” excuse doesn’t fly. In fact, a forward-thinking design that is developed in conjunction with a neighborhood plan would bring more consistent development income over the long term because they could count on additional projects that support each other and increase value. That’s exactly what they are doing downtown – look at square foot prices in lofts over the past seven years.
My experience with John Steffen (owner) and Desiree Knapp (residential development) is that they simply don’t know the difference between a good design and a horrible design. Once they have it in their heads what they want to do, its “my way or the highway”. Unfortunately, they arrive at these decisions prior to soliciting information from people who ACTUALLY know what they are doing in regards to design.
Pyramid has an in-house architecture division that is often relegated to the role of production rather than utilized as a planning and design resource in projects like the South Grand McDonald’s and the senior housing project in development. The lack of input allowed by Desiree and John during the development and planning process leads to some horrible monstrosities being built.
Pyramid hits on a good idea every so often (MUCH less often in the residential division as opposed to Pyramid Commercial).
“The only people to blame is the board and Florida for not adhering to the zoning ordinances for this particular lot.”
Since Florida proposed a zoning change for the lot, she was at least trying to follow the law although she was dead wrong.
The board members deserve much more blame. Again, though, they acted legally.
The problem is the law itself, because it allows fools like Steffen, Florida and others to run right over common sense and neighborhood wishes with bad development.
We need to overthrow the zoning code itself, and close spot-zoning loopholes. Recalls are fun but don’t lose sight of the bigger issues.
You are comparing the new McDonald’s tax revenue to the existing McDonald’s tax revenue. What you are missing is that the McDonald’s, even a shiny new one (for a while), will depress tax revenue and value in the surrounding properties. It will make the district that much more difficult to redevelop in a form compatible with the “F – Neighborhood Commercial” zoning designation that depends on pedestrian-oriented businesses.
The potential tax revenue from that particular site is much higher if it had three businesses and some housing on it as compared to one business surrounded by asphalt. In addition to aligning with the “F” zoning designation, retail/restaurant density produces a higher tax income per square foot.
You are correct, however, that a rocket testing facility would be worse. I’m glad McDonald’s contacted Pyramid before Boeing heard of the available land.
[REPLY – “Very well done, spoken like a true smartass.” – SLP
Dale, you did more and got further than I think the powers expected. If this is the end of the line, you can rest well knowing that you did everything possible, and that you were in the right. Steve P., you did a great service to the St. Louis community by highlighting this fight on your blog.
[REPLY – First, thank you for the kind words. Much appreciated. Second, I don’t think this is over just yet. I know a number of people have been interviewing lawyers over the last couple of months in preparation for this expected moment. Based on my experience, a lawsuit asking the court to review the decision of the Board of Public Service & Board of Adjustment could easily take 9 months to a year to resolve. – SLP]
“You are correct, however, that a rocket testing facility would be worse. I’m glad McDonald’s contacted Pyramid before Boeing heard of the available land.”
Fell out of my chair!
Mr. Shapiro,
You can bet your bottom dollar that the leaders of the recall are not giving up this fight. I have been sweating every weekend collecting signatures, and so have many others. This recall is not going to end until the 1409 signatures are verified.
Dale, Eric, and Rita Ford have done a wonderful job fighting this decision, but it is not over yet. The book is not published, as the chapter is not complete. Do not stop reading.
You will hear more from the streets in the upcoming weeks.
Who are these developers that are salivating at building dense/urban projects in that area? No one.
[REPLY – You are partially correct but not for the reason you think you are. Smart urban developers will make investments in dense new construction in areas where such development is fully supported at the municipal level. As evidenced by this situation, the concept of density and creating a rich urban street along this section of Grand is not part of the political road map. As such, developers are not going to risk their financial futures.
On the other hand, if residents and the city got together and worked on a master plan for the area (and stuck to it) as well as changed the zoning and made other signals to developers density was encouraged, they might take a look see. Otherwise, until the attitude changes, you will not see them even passing by. – SLP]
But Steve, according to your theory, the developers and corporations (such as Pyramid and McDonalds) control municipal officials. Therefore, if developers wanted to build urban projects, they would just buy off the pawns in municipal government for their support. Maybe developers aren’t as all-powerful as you make them (and their contributions) out to be.
[REPLY They do and they are. But these guys are as much in the suburban mentality as the aldermen. The numerous urban developers building great projects throughout the country just by-pass St. Louis and our 1947 Comprehensive Plan way of thinking. – SLP]
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Great (dripping sarcasm). A refugee getting run over or mugged in the McD’s parking lot or drive way, fresh out out his or her English class next door, will make a wonderful news story. Bravo, STL. Is this really the end of the line as this goes?
Someone will pay for this injustice, and I suspect it will be Alderwoman Florida…..
I think it was a foregone conclusion that the McDs was going in that location, and was going to have a drive-through. The opportunity I think those that oppose the drive-through missed was in working with McDs, and the City, to develop a plan for an acceptable design with a drive-through. I saw better plans come out of this discussion, but I think the focus on the drive-through issue hurt those opposing it. If they had channeled their energy at drive-through mitigation, they might have ended-up with a better design than what they may now get. It may not be too late for all interested parties to come together and work on a highly urban design that can be accepted by McDs neighbors, if the interested parties will work together.
“It may not be too late for all interested parties to come together and work on a highly urban design that can be accepted by McDs neighbors, if the interested parties will work together.”
In St. Louis!!???
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
Travis-you obviously don’t understand the whole idea of aldermanic courtesy.
Wasn’t there only one elected official who spoke out against this proposal?
Let’s see…2010 is only a few years away. And the north side has been gaining in population…
During the next round aldermanic musical chairs, ooops, I mean ward redistricting, look for the 20th ward to be moving back to north St. Louis ….
Something is better than nothing! I mean, come on, we should be grateful McDonald’s even WANTS to be in OUR city… let alone on a strip like S. Grand… whatever it must look like. The residents can just pick up the daily trash… it’s good exercise.
Whatever our political and business leaders must do to get and keep business in this city is cool by me. Who are we to tell them how we want this city to look and grow ???????
*******************
On a more serious note – For those of us who are willing to put the good of the people and this city before our own pre-pubescent egos and self-serving ways of doing business, please consider running for political office or getting on a public commission. It’s time.
Public Commissions are patronage positions. We will not have independent, objective appointees until we have independent, objective elected leaders. Ultimately, politicians have to appoint people they can “control” to some degree or another. I would guess that’s why the Mayor’s deputy stood in the corner of the chambers during the Board of Adjustment hearing and deliberations.
The residents, the local businesses, and the city all working together has nothing to do with the concept of Aldermanic courtesy. It might be a bit naive and idealistic for me to want to see the stakeholders to work together, but that is the only way positive change can occur with buy-in from the community-at-large. I’m not some Pollyanna asking “Can’t we all just get along.” I recognize and respect the fact that stakeholders have different agendas, may hate one another, and may not like having to working with eachother. But the best way to have a voice in the discussion is by working together. At least that way you can mitigate the extent of those elements of those elements you are against, and perhaps through compromise, even eliminate them. What’s that adage about honey and flies? I think you get my point.
Why does John Steffen want to destroy the city of St. Louis?
He’s the man behind this plan, behind Sullivan Place, and possibly behind the destruction of the Clemens House as well.
Let him suffer with Ald. Florida — don’t just go after her alone. Recall her and you’ll get another Pyramid pawn — the system itself is the problem. Then again, it’s easy to pick on a female politician and hard to fight a popular rich developer.
If businesses whose objectives are inapposite to those of residents have the support of the alderman, what incentive is there to “meet and confer.” Until the alderman truly represents the interests of the represented and can be held accountable in some fashion for not doing so, none.
Pyramid is not the problem. They are trying to do business just like everyone else. They apparently know what makes them money and are doing their best to put food on the table for their kids and their employees. The only people to blame is the board and Florida for not adhering to the zoning ordinances for this particular lot. Now that we are going to have an empty McDonalds on our hands, its up to everyone now to put pressure on the remaining parties to make sure something is done about it.
I do have to agree with Steve though about the lack of forward thinking and civic absentmindedness that is going on in the ranks.
Good development could put money in Steffen’s pocket and food on the table. The “it’s just business” excuse doesn’t fly. In fact, a forward-thinking design that is developed in conjunction with a neighborhood plan would bring more consistent development income over the long term because they could count on additional projects that support each other and increase value. That’s exactly what they are doing downtown – look at square foot prices in lofts over the past seven years.
My experience with John Steffen (owner) and Desiree Knapp (residential development) is that they simply don’t know the difference between a good design and a horrible design. Once they have it in their heads what they want to do, its “my way or the highway”. Unfortunately, they arrive at these decisions prior to soliciting information from people who ACTUALLY know what they are doing in regards to design.
Pyramid has an in-house architecture division that is often relegated to the role of production rather than utilized as a planning and design resource in projects like the South Grand McDonald’s and the senior housing project in development. The lack of input allowed by Desiree and John during the development and planning process leads to some horrible monstrosities being built.
Pyramid hits on a good idea every so often (MUCH less often in the residential division as opposed to Pyramid Commercial).
“The only people to blame is the board and Florida for not adhering to the zoning ordinances for this particular lot.”
Since Florida proposed a zoning change for the lot, she was at least trying to follow the law although she was dead wrong.
The board members deserve much more blame. Again, though, they acted legally.
The problem is the law itself, because it allows fools like Steffen, Florida and others to run right over common sense and neighborhood wishes with bad development.
We need to overthrow the zoning code itself, and close spot-zoning loopholes. Recalls are fun but don’t lose sight of the bigger issues.
Charter reform in my lifetime!
Maybe McDonalds will be more receptive to our gripes than our own elected officials. To write:
McDonaldÂ’s Corporation
2111 McDonald’s Dr
Oak Brook, IL 60523
Or try this web page to send them a comment at:
http://www.mcdonalds.com/app_controller.custsat.custsat_form_social.html
What can it hurt to ask them to not ruin property values?
This is great news for the city. A business gets to stay and improve its building. Increased tax revenue for the city.
You would think a rocket-testing facility was going to be built from the petty griping here.
Craig,
You are comparing the new McDonald’s tax revenue to the existing McDonald’s tax revenue. What you are missing is that the McDonald’s, even a shiny new one (for a while), will depress tax revenue and value in the surrounding properties. It will make the district that much more difficult to redevelop in a form compatible with the “F – Neighborhood Commercial” zoning designation that depends on pedestrian-oriented businesses.
The potential tax revenue from that particular site is much higher if it had three businesses and some housing on it as compared to one business surrounded by asphalt. In addition to aligning with the “F” zoning designation, retail/restaurant density produces a higher tax income per square foot.
You are correct, however, that a rocket testing facility would be worse. I’m glad McDonald’s contacted Pyramid before Boeing heard of the available land.
[REPLY – “Very well done, spoken like a true smartass.” – SLP
Rather than take up a whole lotta space here, I posted my thoughts on the hearing at http://renovatestl.com/essay-mcdboa.php
Dale, you did more and got further than I think the powers expected. If this is the end of the line, you can rest well knowing that you did everything possible, and that you were in the right. Steve P., you did a great service to the St. Louis community by highlighting this fight on your blog.
[REPLY – First, thank you for the kind words. Much appreciated. Second, I don’t think this is over just yet. I know a number of people have been interviewing lawyers over the last couple of months in preparation for this expected moment. Based on my experience, a lawsuit asking the court to review the decision of the Board of Public Service & Board of Adjustment could easily take 9 months to a year to resolve. – SLP]
“You are correct, however, that a rocket testing facility would be worse. I’m glad McDonald’s contacted Pyramid before Boeing heard of the available land.”
Fell out of my chair!
Mr. Shapiro,
You can bet your bottom dollar that the leaders of the recall are not giving up this fight. I have been sweating every weekend collecting signatures, and so have many others. This recall is not going to end until the 1409 signatures are verified.
Dale, Eric, and Rita Ford have done a wonderful job fighting this decision, but it is not over yet. The book is not published, as the chapter is not complete. Do not stop reading.
You will hear more from the streets in the upcoming weeks.
Who are these developers that are salivating at building dense/urban projects in that area? No one.
[REPLY – You are partially correct but not for the reason you think you are. Smart urban developers will make investments in dense new construction in areas where such development is fully supported at the municipal level. As evidenced by this situation, the concept of density and creating a rich urban street along this section of Grand is not part of the political road map. As such, developers are not going to risk their financial futures.
On the other hand, if residents and the city got together and worked on a master plan for the area (and stuck to it) as well as changed the zoning and made other signals to developers density was encouraged, they might take a look see. Otherwise, until the attitude changes, you will not see them even passing by. – SLP]
But Steve, according to your theory, the developers and corporations (such as Pyramid and McDonalds) control municipal officials. Therefore, if developers wanted to build urban projects, they would just buy off the pawns in municipal government for their support. Maybe developers aren’t as all-powerful as you make them (and their contributions) out to be.
[REPLY They do and they are. But these guys are as much in the suburban mentality as the aldermen. The numerous urban developers building great projects throughout the country just by-pass St. Louis and our 1947 Comprehensive Plan way of thinking. – SLP]
How funny it was to click on the ad for one of this blog’s sponsors, Chris Thiemet (sp?), and discover that he works for a Pyramid Company!
By Steve’s logic, this website should fill up with pro-Pyramid sentiment in a matter of days.