Passenger Rail Service from St. Louis to Tulsa & OKC?
Tulsa’s leaders are meeting with Amtrak officials later this week to talk passenger rail service between their city and Oklahoma’s capital, Oklahoma City (my hometown). They are seeking a further connection to either Kansas City or St. Louis. Oklahoma was one of the few states that had no Amtrak service at all until 1999 when a connection to Fort Worth ended the 20-year stint without service. Tulsa now wants to get connected via rail.
A Tulsa to OKC line is interesting. The two cities are only 90 minutes apart by car and by air you’ll spend more time in security than in the air. Does the cost of service make sense? Possibly, both OKC and Tulsa have nice old stations and the rail service would bring passengers into the downtown areas as they once did. Also, the road traffic on I-44 between the two cities is considerable at all times. The rail would also connect Tulsa to the Dallas-Ft. Worth area.
But the reason for this post is to question coming into Missouri and if so to Kansas City or St. Louis? Selfishly I’m going to argue in favor of St. Louis because that would allow me to take the train back to visit relatives or for my 77-year old father to come visit me easily (his first time on a plane will be in a couple of weeks when we go to California). My dad says my maternal grandparents, both long deceased, came through St. Louis’ Union Station via the train on their way to Canada one year for vacation back in the 1960s. As I-44 replaced more than just the old Route 66, it also replaced the rail service connecting Oklahoma into St. Louis, Chicago and beyond.
As my Dad and I talked on the phone tonight he recalls seeing very fast trains moving through rural western Oklahoma and into Amarillo Tx (yes, I have relatives there too). But he commented that recently he has watched slow moving freight lines in Oklahoma City where the tracks are raising up and down due to their poor condition. I’ve observed similar here. You can’t have efficient passenger service on old and dangerous rail lines.
Are we willing to pay for the infrastructure for quality high-speed trains connecting St. Louis to cities like Chicago, Kansas City or Tulsa? Would people take a fast train rather than drive or fly? I like to think that I would but the only drawback is in these cities, except Chicago, life is no longer connected to the train stations. Yes, in a number of them we can get to other places but it is just not the same as leaving Union Station in Chicago and being connected to the entire city.
No! Amtrak receives huge tax subsidies for the few passengers they move outside the northeast commuter corridor, and the existing bus and airline options (that do not receive huge federal subsidies) seem to be doing an OK job now. The reason the privately-owned railroads pulled out of the passenger business is that it made no sense financially. GM/Ford/Toyota, Southwest Airlines and Greyhound, among many others, obviously do a better job of giving most customers exactly what they’re looking for! Nostalgia is fine as long as you don’t expect me to pay for it . . .
Until more interstates are tolled, I can’t see a problem in subsidizing Amtrak. Besides, continued service between STL and KC, along with the addition of service between STL and Springfield (which MODOT is seriously considering, hence STL more likely the OK connection) is far less costly to taxpayers than Neal St. Onge’s idea of a sales tax increase for widening I-70 and I-44.
The whole “Amtrak” can’t turn a profit line is bogus. When was the last time MODOT made a profit??
In my opinion, the provision of various forms of non-private transport is a public good whose environmental, land-use (and, I would argue, social) benefits constitute a public good worthy of subsidy–and nationwide expansion.
The specifics of a proposed Tulsa-OKC route aside, Tulsa’s interest in establishing rail links is interesting as an indicator. Even smaller cities, it seems, are coming to recognize that their attractiveness and competitiveness as residential and business locations increasingly will depend on their ability to offer alternatives to private transportation.
Post World War II, we made a policy decision to deconstruct an efficient, non-polluting national system of public transport. With sufficient public support, we can re-establish and extend that system. The developments in Tulsa, however they turn out, indicate that rail transit links–only one public transit solution, among many–are at least being thought about and discussed. That alone is cause for celebration.
I would love to see expanded rail service from St. Louis and if it is to Tulsa, then that is fine with me. Ultiamtely though, my biggest point is that Jim Zavist couldn’t be more wrong. To support the flagining legacy airlines, the Federal Goverment doles out millions in tax breaks. To maintain 30 year hold highways, we are bared from converting our current interstates to toll ways to fund improvements (novel I know people paying for what they use). Yet, here we complain about taxes to pay for expanded rail service? Regardless of how you cut it Jim, Amtrak is going to continue to exist and you and I are going to be paying taxes to suport it. This is a fact. So the question to you is this: Would you rather pay taxes to support a low quality marginal train system (what we have now) or pay taxes to support a high quality modern* train system? The latter would be a better use of your tax dollars.
*Modern meaning that Amtrak must abandon the concept of trans-contenential rail service and build a network of high speed trains that can compete on time and price with airlines (ie. regional service). Traveling from STL to KC, CHI, MSP, INDY, Little Rock, Memphis, Des Moines and some other cities I am sure I am forgeting are all within the reach of a decent high speed rail network (speeds of say 110 to 180 MPH) with limited stops. Envision a line from St. Louis to MSP stoping in only Des Moines or a line from KC to Chicago with a stop in St. Louis. Such a vision is close to the oposite of our current system, where I need 2 full days to travel from St. Louis to New York Penn Station on Amtrak, it will cost me $300 to $400 a person, and to keep Federal and State law makers happy Amtrak stops at many smaller towns and cities making a slow trip (due to track conditions) even slower.
I’d be curious to know whether or not Amtrak could make a profit if they didn’t have to [directly] pay for the infrastructure. That said, I’m all for seeing more trains to and from St. Louis. I’d love to see high speed trains…
The rebuilds of I-70 and I-44 have the same reasons behind them as Hwy 40 here in St. Louis: old deterioriating pavement and bridges. It’d be great if they could take advantage of the rebuilds to put high speed rail (I’m talking 135+ mph) along portions of the almost certainly expanded right of ways.
Wow these comments demonstrate the friction created when governmental policies distort rational economic behavior and basic reasoning. Two wrongs do not make a right people!
Yes I would love to be able to use high speed rail! But do I want it built like our light rail in StL that is so deficient that I go out of my way not to ride it? NO! (By the way, I rode mass transit in other cities for over 20+ years so I am an advocate of smart alternatives). The concept of public good has no bounds.
Instead of arguing over whether X or Y should be subsidized and by how much, you should first protest government’s unnecessary involvement and/or policies which distort smart decision making. Otherwise, like arguing about the SLPS, no solution is possible. Until you realize and acknowledge this basic fact, government inevitably begets more government, more controversy, more debate, and more friction. There will never be concensus once this begins.
Public rights-of-way are just that and policy should support these principles and not undermine it. Start by advocating tolls on all highways and NO parking (even on residential streets) should be free. By the way, tax rates on parking garages should be increased dramatically to reflect their value.
Limited stops would be crucial – Between Tulso and St. Louis, I can envision on ly three reasonable stops – Rolla, Springfield, and Joplin.
Also, it was always baffled me why Amtrak’s Stl-KC service goes through Jeff City and not Columbia. I’m sure there are plenty more politicians using trains on that route than there would be college kids going home if it went through Columbia…
Well if we are going to spend billions on highway development then why not Mass Transit? We also subsidize the private sector as well such as the airline industry…and milk…and farmers…and steel. Basically we protect our domestic private sector industries thus violating free trade internationally while continuing the 1950’s highway development. If you are going to argue against AmTrack because its subsidized, then well, you better stop buying food, move to the woods, and begin hunting. While I would like to see all of these subsidies reduced, that would take a massive effort one which is unlikely to occur.
I would like to see rail transit expanded as this decreases pollution from both airplanes and the auto, dependency on oil, is much faster than auto travel, and as you say does not require being raped by the incompetent TSA.
“Are we willing to pay for the infrastructure for quality high-speed trains connecting St. Louis to cities like Chicago, Kansas City or Tulsa?”
UR, it’s interesting that you framed the question this way. An efficient business would not ask if “we” i.e. the taxpayers are willing to pay for infrastructure but whether potential customers would be willing to pay ticket prices that generated enough income for infrastructure.
I’d love to see the US come back into modern times and have a real rail travel system. I hate to fly (TSA bs just makes it worse) so I’d be willing to pay airfare-like rates for high-speed options–and I don’t think I’m alone in that. But the problem is that unlike other countries, most places in this country are not only no longer connected to the train station, but they also have no viable local transit. That’s why I don’t fly home to Little Rock–at $2.50/gallon, airfare and gas are a wash, but then I’d have to rent a car to visit the people I’m there to see, who all live in the exurbs (and 60 miles apart).
Better to subsidize bus service: What we have now with Amtrak are publicly-subsidized vehicles on private rights-of-way. What we have now with cars, trucks and buses are privately-subsidized vehicles on a publicly-subsidized rights-of way, pretty similar (in concept) to the airline industry. It would make more sense (if we want to subsidize public transit) to have publicly-subsidized vehicles using publicly-subsidized rights-of-way (more bang for the buck). Still, I’d rather see far fewer government subsidies for all forms of transportation. Government intervention just distorts the marketplace and adds another layer of funds-consuming bureacracy that doesn’t deliver any viable services to the end consumer. And yes, the airlines get tax breaks because they occasionally make money, something Amtrak hasn’t come near to doing for decades!
Jim,
The airline industry received a 15 Billion Dollar Bailout after September 11. That is a little bigger than tax breaks. The justification was that the industry is essential to the economy.
In regards to Jeff’s post, Missouri Amtrak service stops in Jefferson City and not Columbia simply because that’s how the Missouri Pacific line (now Union Pacific) was built in the 1860’s. Before the fifties and sixties when railroads began dropping their passenger service, there used to be several routes to choose from to travel across Missouri. The current MetroLink Delmar station, in fact, used to be an intermediate stop on the Wabash Railroad’s route to Kansas City. By the time Amtrak was created in 1971, however, the last remaining service from St. Louis to Kansas City was the Missouri Pacific’s line through Jefferson City, and so that was the route on which Amtrak took over the passenger service. It sounds simple enough to just detour the train to Columbia, but virtually no new railroad routes beyond the length of a handful of miles have been built in the United States since the early 20th century. Certainly many routes have been upgraded, but the creation of a brand new right of way is very rare and usually prohibitively expensive and a political nightmare.
In a response to the various comments about track condition, it’s worth noting that freight railroads are in a boom period right now, fueled largely by coal shipments and container traffic from Asia. The main lines of the largest railroads are maintained at a high level to support their growing traffic load. Unfortunately, whenever possible, Amtrak trains are relegated to secondary lines, so as not to disrupt the profitable freight service of their host railroads. A great example of this is Amtrak’s Texas Eagle which slowly snakes through South St. Louis each day on the little-used and marginally-maintained Oak Hill branch on its way to and from Dallas and San Antonio.
By the way, a general plan for a Midwest High Speed rail network already exists. View it here. Full funding, needless to say, does not exist at this time.
Given the volumes of passengers carried, I would say that airlines are much more important than Amtrak in today’s world. 9/11 was (hopefully) a unique event – Amtrak comes back year after year after year with their hand out, looking for another bailout. I’d be more sympathetic to Amtrak if I was seeing progress, but all I’m seeing is an expanding amount of state-subsidized pork-barrel service with no sort of viable business plan.
The wikipedia link below has two ABSOLUTELY SPECTACULAR maps of the railroads in latter 1800s. I highly suggest taking a look. They show quite clearly that Columbia was nothing but a spur route from a line than goes through Centralia and Mexico Missouri.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsburgh,_Cincinnati,_Chicago_and_St._Louis_Railroad
Thanks, Bill… How about building a spur from Jeff City to Columbia, then?
Happy New Year to all!
MoDOT will soon lobby the state legislature supporting rail passenger service, Amtrak from St. Louis to Springfield, Branson, and Tulsa. Fifteen years of work went into promoting the effort. It’s critical people who want such service speak out.
Please speak out if you want such service from Chicago to Tulsa!
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Time for Passenger Rail Service
In 1990 I started an effort to get Passenger Rail Service to southwest Missouri and across the state. During my time at (School) College of the Ozarks they helped some on the effort. After graduation I worked on several attempts to place it on the state ballot. People support the effort all across the state but it is impossible to put an issue on the state ballot unless you have over $100,000 to spend. After 17 years I have 15 boxes of contacts and names of people who want such service. So I am running for Mayor of Springfield and people can find out more about the rail issue by going to http://www.reedforcouncil.com
MODOT announced last summer that they want such service to help with traffic relief on I-44. They are also lobbying the legislature at this time for help with funding. Such service is wanted and would benefit the downtowns of St. Louis, Rolla, Lebanon, Springfield, and maybe Branson. People all across the state want it but we have no organized lobbying group for such rail service. It is critical people speak out now. Write letters to your local newspapers call your representatives and yell from the tallest mountain!
Steven Reed
1441 S. Estate Ave.
Springfield, MO
417-368-1481
People can learn more by going to http://www.reedforcouncil.com
People can contribute up to $50 and checks are being accepted made out to:
Reed for Mayor
1441 S. Estate Avenue
Springfield, MO 65804