Football Fans Block Public Sidewalk Before Games
One of the joys of living downtown is accepting the influx and outflux of people for events. At one time in history various events were held throughout the cities, where ever the team or organization could buy property. Once we managed to kill our downtowns, we used stadiums and other attractions to attempt to prop them up. And until a better stadium deal is coming along, the St. Louis Rams are not going anywhere.
Sunday I was out for a post-brunch walk and noticed tents and all sorts of otherwise normal looking people, dressed in blue and gold, standing around their SUVs. After viewing the windows at the downtown Macy’s I was heading back toward my loft when in the middle of the sidewalk was this group of fans. Once passed I turned back around to snap this shot.
For me this wasn’t really that big of a deal. My friend and I were able to squeeze by the parking meters to go around them. You can’t tell from this image but they had a grill out smack dab in the middle of the sidewalk. I’ve had my share of sidewalk confrontations but I knew better than to argue with a large group of football fans that had been drinking in the AM.
I guess the paved parking lot wasn’t enough room for them? Or the “plaza” across the street at the US Bank — the site of the former Ambassador Theater? I’m all for a good time but must it be in the path of pedestrians used by real residents?
I should have asked them where they lived. Then I could have rented a car and BBQ’d on the sidewalk on their cul-de-sac.  Somehow I don’t think they’d get it.
They’d never do this in say NY or Chicago. Or course, there, they actually have such a steady flow of pedestrians people wouldn’t think of setting up the tailgate on a sidewalk. Here we make it almost perfect for such a blockage — back the SUV into the space, open the tailgate and commence partying on the sidewalk.  I’m told this helps downtown but I haven’t quite figured out how just yet.
Nice. You’re right though, they wouldn’t have understood you grilling on their sidewalk. They’d probably be fine with it, after all, they don’t use it either. It’s just that concrete thing that runs through the end of the driveway near the street. What else are you supposed to do with a sidewalk than drive over it to get in your garage?
I was in New York last week. No one grilling. Why would you when there are food carts on every corner with everything from “sausages” to Chinese.
consideration? what’s that? does it have a hemi?
Judging from the throngs of pedestrians in the shot, this was quite a nuisance. It’s really pretty sad really.
from the department of redundancy department…sorry.
The thing about that US Bank Plaza is that nobody is allowed to use it. If you try to use it as a picnic spot, even as a relatively well-dressed downtown office worker during the lunch hour, you’ll eventually be shoo-ed away by bank security.
so one or two pedestrians don’t deserve the same consideration as throngs of pedestrians? the sidewalk serves a purpose and tail-gating is not that purpose.
St. Louis fans, squeezed between large SUVs like bugs in a rug, know our sidewalks are for beer drinking only.
Call the police.
Hummm Beer drinking and BBQ all in the morning hours. Where is the port-a-potty ? should they not have to apply for a permit to assemble the tent. You are correct in that you would not get away with such antics in Chicago in fact I doubt you could get away with it in Festus for that matter.
is the good news if you’re a homeless wino with rams fatigues you can be open container all morning and afternoon in fit right in?
I find it ironic that we don’t “allow” street peddling but we allow exurban hoosiers to block the pedestrian right of way. I would have told them to take their cheap beer and mudflaps back to Wentzville until they learn manners.
Is this post a parody? Tailgaters interfering with your “post-brunch walk”?
My experience, from my less responsible youth, is that St. Louis Police don’t care at all about some people standing around drinking on the streets of downtown. My friends and I have actually drunk beer on Washington Avenue, in full view of police on a normal evening, and they did nothing. Like I said, I wouldn’t do it nowadays, but just my experience.
There was a port-a-potty at the corner of 6th and Olive a couple of weeks ago. It was for Rams fans tailgating on the lot next to Charlie Gitto’s. It was right next to the sausage guy kitty corner across from Starbucks. He was pissed about it. I’m sure it did wonders for his walk up business! Personally, I’d rather see partiers on the sidewalk than port-a-pottys. And talk about partiers on the sidewalk, what about Mardis Gras in Soulard? Partiers on the sidewalks are part of urban life!
“Partiers on the sidewalks are part of urban life!”
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true, but there’s a difference between a bunch of people standing around on the sidewalk, and setting up a tent and a BBQ pit in the middle of the sidewalk. i doubt there are any tents set up in the middle of the the sidewalk at mardi gras – at least not sanctioned tents. i could be mistaken.
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why couldn’t these football thugs have set up their tent 5 feet to the right (in the image) in the parking lot? who’s going to yell at them?
I’m ashamed at some of the posts and comments in this thread. It’s funny that we want people to be in downtown but when they are there, you find something NEGATIVE to write. People aren’t going to be comfortable downtown until you feel like you can use it. I personally don’t see a big problem with the people on the sidewalk whether they are from the Wentzville, Cahokia, or Downtown. What’s up with all the name calling? “Football thugs?” Are you kidding me? They came downtown to have a good time. For shame.
Steve you are starting to sound like a crank…..sorry……..Tailgating is an age old tradition, one hard pressed Ram fans should be allowed to enjoy.
Perhaps if you would have stopped, chatted them up a little, you could have had a wonderful encounter and shared with these fun loving folks your joy with the city. To say nothing of probably getting a little post-brunch-brat & beer.
Now that would be a real community building experience that I hear so many calling for.
This is a tradeoff – most NFL stadia are surrounded by a sea of pay parking lots (KC, Dallas, Denver, Cinci all come to mind). Here, the decision was made to put the dome in the middle of downtown, which I think was and is a great urban decision (but the dome part sucks). This is more like many baseball stadia, where the crowds do spill out and “take over” the public right of way before and after the game. Maybe it is about the tyrany of the majority, after all . . . not a whole lot different than veterans taking over the streets for Veterans Day parades or a bunch of lesbians and gays taking over the streets for a Gay Pride parade . . .
Amen to the last two posters. It’s about people first, not buildings. For too many years, St. Louis was a place with great buildings and not enough people. Now we’re getting people, and everyone is worked up over the built environment. Maybe we should try to seek some middle ground?
They should have set up their tailgating party on the sidewalk in front of the America’s center. It may still be blocking the sidewalk, but at least it would piss off the taxis that are normally there. I’ll bet the police would have done something about a tailgating party that was blocking a taxi stand.
It is kind of silly they are in the middle of the sidewalk. I think it is correct you couldn’t even think about it if you were in Chicago or New York. My guess is that it is a self correcting problem, when the volume of pedestrian traffic increases, it will become less likely something like this will occur.
It also points to a lack of well designed public space surrounding the dome. The inability to tap into these celebrations to make them larger than life is where St. Louis continues to fall short. The photo is also a pitiful statement, not so much concerning the blocking of the sidewalk, but more in defining the condition of the greater city.
The design question becomes, you build a dome, how do you accommodate tailgating and other celebrations? Is there a way to tie it into a commercial square? Is there a way to consolidate it to enhance the celebrations? Maybe streets are shut down, maybe sidewalks are extra wide to accommodate both tents and pedestrians, there is a host of design options that could have channeled this energy of sport fans and citizens into a stronger, people orientated city.
It is like the path worn in the grass while the sidewalk sits unused.
Downtown is the central business district and front porch of the City of St. Louis and the entire region. It does not belong to a few thousand loft dwellers.
The tailgaters have been coming downtown on Sunday mornings since 1995, long before the development of most of the subsidized luxury lofts. They’re having a makeshift party in the middle of downtown. If they had a permit, would that make it more urban?
Steve, I think the fact that they do this on a Sunday morning is key. If this was on a Tuesday, I would agree that they need to get out of the way. But Sunday morning tailgating has, in fact, become a tradition downtown. I don’t go to many Rams games these days but I’ve been to a number of tailgating parties over the years and it’s fun to drink a beer in the middle of downtown. I may not live downtown but it’s my downtown too.
I have to disagree with you, Steve. Your analogy to tailgating in these suburbanites’ cul-de-sac doesn’t follow, because downtown streets in the central business district are fundamentally different than a dead end suburban street; the downtown street is of course more public – with so many public amenities (sports teams, cultural, etc.) downtown, you just have to expect this sort of thing. The blocking the sidewalk is a foot traffic issue – if there were more of it, they wouldn’t have considered it appropriate to block the sidewalk, most likley. But this is exhibit A in many of us who are interested in and live in the City don’t necessarily want to live in the Central Business District, as you have chosen to do.
Block the whole street and even turn multiple streets into a walking district around the Dome.
Tailgate in by 10, walking district ends at 3, something like that.
Or maybe the simple answer was, on this Sunday, that the tent went up to protect them from the drizzle . . . would it be any better if they were congregating and “blocking” the sidewalk without any sort of protection? I don’t see it as that much different than restaurants commandeering the sidewalks for al fresco dining – you gotta “squeeze by” there, in many cases, as well.
I also wouldn’t rank NYC or Chicago as “better” – both their football facilities are outside of downtown and surrounded by parking, with Soldier Field desecrated by the addition of the “flying saucer” and New Yorkers enjoying the beautiful Meadowlands!
Steve wrote………..I’m not a fan of parades…………..Where does that come from?
How can you make a statement like that while constantly harping on the need to develop our urban fabric?
Now you want to run people off the street for tailgating.
It sounds to me you would be much more happy in some sanitized world where sophisticated people ran around window shopping while carrying GAP bags in their hands. The urban experience for me is much more joyous and a little rough at the edges.
I agree with Jim – A great restaurant downtown that I frequent for brunch, takes up just as much room on the sidewalk as these folks do – but I guess that’s okay?
By the way, I have tailgated with loft-dwellers and grilled veggie burgers and brats – you have no idea where those people are from or what they are grilling – it’s pretty silly to make assumptions, just as silly as them assuming they could take up the sidewalk.
Downtown parades are a fun St. Louis tradition. They have brought millions of people downtown. Among the standard fare (VP Parade, St. Patrick’s Day Parade, Thanksgiving Day Parade), In the past ten years, we’ve also had a World Series Championship Parade and a Superbowl Championship Parade. Are you suggesting these should be moved to Manchester and 141?
You know, this is why I left Soulard and ended up buying a house in a different neighborhood. I couldn’t deal with the west county frat boys who thought it was ok to use my side yard as a urinal, and unfortunately in some neighborhoods, those things are never going to change. Now I just have to deal with the drivers who think they can turn right onto Juniata from Grand and just stop, thus turning the first several hundred feet of Juniata into a valet parking lot.
First, I would have faked right. Then I would have faked left. Then, I would have charged right up the middle of these folks, grabbed a brat, broke through the crowd, and spiked it in the middle of the sidewalk. Then, I would have done a dance.
Then, I would express on a public forum that, perhaps, if tailgating is an established downtown tradition, there should be a section of a street or two blocked off to promote such activity while providing a safe place free of vehicle traffic for intoxicated folks to congregate and sear flesh together. Then everybody wins. People can walk, cars can drive, the handicapped can roll around and around, and football thugs can mingle together and set up all the tents and grills and televisions that their hearts desire. It ain’t rocket science, folks. Although I fully support the use of rockets downtown.
Carondelet Ninja wrote: “Then, I would express on a public forum that, perhaps, if tailgating is an established downtown tradition, there should be a section of a street or two blocked off to promote such activity while providing a safe place free of vehicle traffic for intoxicated folks to congregate and sear flesh together.”
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Of course then it wouldn’t be tailgating. What’s wrong with an organic urban experience? Why does everything have to be master planned and separated into neat little compartments?
One big adavantage of having the dome where it is its accessibility to Metrolink, I have to disgree with your conclusion that they should be “out on the edge of the region, not on the edge of the CBD.” If we could start clean, putting it in East St. Louis, near the casino would likely be a great compromise.
” I simply ask that people not show up, “use it†and then leave. If so, I’d rather they just stayed at home.” This is a way of life. This happens all the time. St. Louis is a destination. They come, they party, they see a football game. Some people stick around and some go right home. One day, they may decide to move here (assuming they are from out of the city/state). I will find common ground with the negative nelly’s. Leave a little space on the sidewalk for a few of us to walk by but —-please come downtown to party and be merry.
“Of course then it wouldn’t be tailgating.”
SUVs don’t have tailgates, they have hatches, so it isn’t tailgating no matter where its done. It’s hatchgating. And that’s laughable.
“I’m ashamed at some of the posts and comments in this thread.”
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oh, well.
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the fact of the matter is, if these people had any consideration for others, they would have shifted their party slightly off the sidewalk. their behavior does indeed betray a lack of respect. the hallowed tradition of tailgating deserves no more respect than its participants are willing to give.
This is now officially nothing more than a complaint log(Try listening to Janie’s Cryin’ by Van Halen as a backdrop while reading this and everyone else’s posts)….and less and less a dialog about how we can make St. louis a great place to live, work and play….and attract people downtown to do all of these things.
So what! They were just in your way. Just cross the street, Steve, and be done with it! ….maybe even give a wave and welcome those who have come to enjoy/use our great city. There are inconveniences everywhere…your motor-scooter woke me up once as you drove by while I had the windows up….I made no attempt to outlaw scooters or their decibel level. I like scooters…and I like tourists too….both are great for our city. Lets get back to talking about the lack of ADA compliant sidewalks and the lack of leaf pickup and free recycling and smoking bans and parades and a good looking riverfront and a place for artists to feel at home and comfortable and fines for unattentive landlords and…….
^I agree.
hola from costa rica – i find this post quite funny and amusing – complaining about tailgaters on an early sunday morning blocking the sidewalk – sounds like a complaint from a suburbanite not an urbanite – here in costa rica – from the smallest town to the biggest city of San Jose people walk every where and every sidewalk is blocked by a newstand, a vendor, someone who set up a table to sell lottery tickets – its actually quite vibrant and urban – and no one cares – they go about their business – last year in Buenos Aires – exactly the same – you could barely get down a sidewalk because they were filled with artists selling their art work and entrepeneurs selling nic naks and food – Paris is the same way – and in new york – if you havent tripped over a fake gucci purse – you havent been to new york – thats why i love these places they are vibrant and exciting – perhaps thats the problem with st. louis – we dont have a vibrant city street life and therefore plenty of room to set up a tent a cooler and a barbecue – to me its better than an empty city street anyday!
PT and shocked and in awe, this post has underlying implications for the City of St. Louis. Closing streets, inviting tailgaters and creating a walking district is an action that could be implemented quickly. It would cost little and has a benefit for many.
This opens considerations related to future planning. Maybe a small scale commercial district could help create a celebration zone around the dome. A public square would have worked nicely. (U-shaped, L-shaped etc)
And in fact public squares become parking lots at times in plazas around the world. The dual function helps maintain the urban nature of the city and at the same time double up usage of valuable downtown open space.
But returning to now, in addition to street closings, street vendors and stalls should be included. Ring the area with vendors who will provide a service and broaden economic opportunity. (That is if the powers to be don’t hand out preferential and exclusive treatment to insiders).
Creation of economic opportunity in the form of stalls or vendors should be included in any street closing scheme. I would say such a venture might be capable of including a little grandma from the north side who has an excess of older items she wants to sell.
If economic opportunity could reach that deep into the city it would have a true impact.
In the end it seems the best thing to do is experiment. What can really work? The expense of trying something different is minimal. A great deal could be learned from a few street closing experiments, a few urban stall experiments, and a few parking lot experiments.
Discussion of the tail gate party on the sidewalk is valid. Why is the group blocking the sidewalk? Because those responsible for city planning don’t understand how to shape the city for the use and benefit of its citizens.
What’s worse they don’t seem to care. There is still far too many suburban style commercial enterprises damaging the fabric of the city.
Although if you wanted to rate the importance of topics, I would have to say the creation of a viable mass transit in the city proper is near the top of the list. And certainly any actions around the dome would be enhanced by such a system.
I still fault the idiots on the sidewalk. It doesn’t matter if there was a lot of pedestrian traffic or not, they still had no right to set up shop on the sidewalk. Nobody has been able to explain why it’s so hard to pull the truck up 5 feet. Again, I think it boils down to lazy enforcement of basic quality of life laws.
I am simple. But I understand the academic and “professional” thinking of some of the posters here.
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Let’s keep it simple. I don’t need zoning, ordinances, elected officials telling me the best way to enjoy my day. I feel newsteve made some great points. And they are from observations. Isn’t that what made Jane Jacobs so special? She was not a professional planner, architect, or political figure. She made her arguments with the help of – observation.
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Point of the post is that we should embrace people activity downtown. I don’t give a damn about economic opportunities or social experiments. ADA? I wonder, would JJ oppose those tailgaiters?
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I think we are getting too smart for our own good guys.
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“-thats why i love these places they are vibrant and exciting – perhaps thats the problem with st. louis – we dont have a vibrant city street life and therefore plenty of room to set up a tent a cooler and a barbecue – to me its better than an empty city street anyday!”
Either using the sidewalk for something other than walking is OK, or it’s not. If it’s OK to put tables out in front of a restaurant 5-6 nights a week, making the sidewalk “Tight but still passable by someone on foot single file. Those sitting often have to move for someone in a wheelchair” or if it’s OK to park your motor scooter, oops, motorized bicycle, on the sidewalk, the same consideration needs to be given to people with other priorities. On a Sunday morning in the downtown of any American city, pedestrian traffic is 10%, or less, than it is on weekdays, many evenings and many weekend afternoons. So, once or twice a month, a bunch of football fans do this around the dome. At least they’re coming down – no fans = a lot fewer dollars being spent in our downtown. Bottom line, urban life is either going to be a bit messy or it’s going to be sterile – see “Singapore”.
St. Petersburg, FL. is just starting the discussion on what to do with their baseball stadium: http://www.sptimes.com/2007/11/29/Rays/Rays_ask__Rethink_dow.shtml They currently have a classic dome set in a sea of parking : http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&time=&date=&ttype=&q=Saint+Petersburg,+Pinellas,+Florida,+United+States&ie=UTF8&cd=1&geocode=0,27.771140,-82.639320&ll=27.771127,-82.639332&spn=0.024834,0.039911&t=h&z=15&om=1 We’re in the opposite position on this issue – we have a sports facility that’s somewhat integrated into our urban fabric, and the question is does its users create too much of an impact on its non-users?
There are way bigger fish to fry. As long as they clean up after their sidewalk party leave them alone.
First, some people complained about there being no people on the streets of downtown St. Louis and now there seems to be complaints about people blocking the sidewalk on a street that has little street life.
Come on.
Defending the indefensible? As simple as this story is on the surface, it provides valuable insight on local mentality and how excuses are quickly made for poor judgment.
When advisor Ted Sorensen was asked about President’s Kennedy’s judgment, he said “I cannot emphasize how important that elusive quality is; far more important than organization, structure, procedures, and machinery. These are all important, yes, but nothing compared to judgment.”
No doubt StL has laws and enforcement abilities against parties-drinking on sidewalks and there are no exemptions for tailgating. However, these obvious violations say so much about local attitudes, a communities’ ability to make excuses for inconveniencing others, etc. But what does it say about the judgment of these fans who believe their right to party supersedes the rights of pedestrians? What does it say about the judgment of local law enforcement to favor one group of citizens over another?
This wouldn’t be my first or favorite example of poor judgment, there are so many others, and that really is the point.
Have you ever walked down a sidewalk in Queens, Harlem or Brooklyn NY ? How about around Hyde Park or Wrigley Field in CHI? There are shops that over-flow racks of clothes onto the sidewalks, body shops that store extra tires, parts etc on the sidewalks, 3-card monty, numerous cafes and bars that have tables and BBQ smokers taking up 75 % of the s.w.; sorry but real urban areas use sidewalks for multiple purposes….I agree tailgating is a bit odd in the middle of the sidewalk but I think some folks are over reacting here. I also saw some folks use the sidewalks in Brooklyn’s rush-hour as a third driving lane!!
I agree with the above comment. The notion that “this wouldn’t happen in Chicago or New York” is completely at odds with my experiences in those cities. Also add Boston to the list of places where you’ll find people drinking beer and barbecuing on the sidewalk (in dense urban areas).
We always want to blame stuff that annoys us personally on the “local mentality” when often times it’s just part of the tradeoffs that are involved in living in any city.
Also, credit to Steve for the original post. At first glance trivial, it’s already generated 50 comments. The post definitely touched a nerve.