Should Missouri Eliminate Self-Service Gas?
In at least a couple of states, motorists don’t pump their own gas — I know from personal experience that Oregon and New Jersey both require, by state law, that an attendant pump the gas.
Yesterday when I was getting gas in NJ we had to wait in line at a fueling station just off the turnpike, before entering Manhattan on the Cross Bronx Expressway (I-95). For those wondering what I am doing driving through the Northeast — I was driving a friend of a friend, her two cats and her car to her new job in the Providence Rhode Island area. I’m flying back late Thursday evening from Boston.
OK, back to the gas issue. So while the wait issue was a pain it was interesting how a state law could create jobs. We paid $2.97/gallon for regular — far less than the $3.17/gallon we paid in Pennsylvania that I had to pump myself. The lines would have been shorter but everyone, including us, seemed to have the tank filler located on the driver’s side of the vehicle. And no, this was not full service — they did not check tire pressure, clean the windows or check under the hood. It was simply gas.
Still, think of the number of entry-level jobs that could be created statewide by eliminating self serve. You guys discuss that while I catch a train to Boston.
I wasn’t aware that MO had a problem with unemployment. What are the numbers? It sounds like this might be a good idea for MIchigan though.
i would freak out if they tired to pull some shenanigans like that here. there is no market for that, thats why it died. don’t force me to pay more for some pointless gesture that no one wants. If they want to pump gas for tips, like the random dude in the bathroom with a piece for gum and some spray to make you smell better, then so be it. this is not a socialist country where everyone gets a job. to get a job you need to find a market and sell your services. If you think you can make money pumping other peoples gas, by all means try.
Why create jobs that add no value ..why not create jobs, even ones that offer minimum wage, that actually yield community benefit.?
“Entry-level jobs” = dead-end jobs?
Look at the lines! Some days I’m in too much of a hurry to even wait for the receipt to print out.
I’d rather pump my own gas, thank you. And the lower price of gas may be a matter of local taxes.
I think the non-selfserve states are the most asinine thing I’ve ever heard of. Travelling to one of these states in any of my vehicles would only ensure that my scooter or motorcycle either a) got a bath in gasoline at every stop, b) that the tank would never be more than 50% full due to the “sock” around the nozzle (note to non-riders: you have to use 2 hands to fill a cycle or scooter – if you don’t manually “lift” that vapor recovery sock up with one hand while filling, you’ll never get more than 50-60% fill in your tank, And you also have to be VERY slow & delicate with many as the gas will come shooting back out of the filler faster than the pump can shut off.) or c) BOTH.
If I were on a trip in either my ’64 or ’87 VW Transporters, I’d never get more than 3/4 in the tank of the ’87 (it’s VERY tricky), and the ’64 with it’s baseball-sized filler neck opening results in the pump falling out and a Zoolander-like gasoline shower if you don’t hold it in the whole time.
Sorry, I’d rather pump my own gas than have some minimum-wage, otherwise unemployable nitwit shower my vehicle, me, and passersby with gasoline.
Rollin Stanley had a pet phrase something like “If you can’t even get out of your car to get a donut, you probably shouldn’t be eating it.” Today’s corollary: if you can’t even get out of your car to fuel it, you probably shouldn’t be driving it. I don’t like the idea of creating unnecessary jobs just for the sake of it, but even worse it just seems lazy.
I like full service gas: you don’t have to get out in the cold (or hot), no risk of spilling gas on your clothes, and, when you’ve got little kids, you don’t have to choose between leaving them in the car or the ordeal of unbuckling and rebuckling them in the darn car seats at stations that don’t have pay-at-the-pump. I used to drive out of my way to take advantage of the few stations that offered it, especially in winter. The Husband, on the other hand, hates it (why? I don’t know.) and would rather take time out of his day to fill up my car himself than have me take it to a full-service station. (No, I don’t have him do this.) And some people are nauseated by gasoline odors and live in places where driving is a necessity.
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Should it be mandated? I don’t know. I just wish I knew where there was a station that offered it.
I remember when self-serve started in Iowa around 1975(?). The idea was to save money for those willing to fill their own tank. There were suppposed to be full service and self service pumps at the gas stations, with the self-service pumps charging less. Guess this did not turn out how it was intended.
I also prefer filling my own tank instead of waiting for an attendant to come out and do it. Of course, back then, the attendant also checked your oil and cleaned your windshield. Then he would take the cash – don’t remember using credit cards – run back into the building and get your change. No tips either.
As far as the vapor recovery nozzles, I hope people won’t try to work around them and disable their function by lifting them up as they fill their tank. This is part of the effort to get St. Louis in compliance with clean air standards. You won’t see them outside the STL Metro area. They prevent many tons of VOCs (Volatile Organic Compounds) from entering the air from the gasoline as people fill their tanks.
Also, gasoline fumes contain carcinogens. Better not to breathe them if you don’t have to as you fill your tank.
Actually, almost all my gas comes from a station that pumps gas for you – the price differential is sometimes less that the self-serve it’s in my neighborhood and provides a job for usually high school teens or second jobbers. Why do I partonize this station? Several reasons, I am not particularly fond of the smell of gasoline on my hands or the fact that often times you can pick up the smell on your shoes from previous spills, my station also will check under the hood or clean a window if asked and it is an occasion to connect with the neighborhood. The people greet me by name ask how my day is going and ALWAYS thank be for my business. If the person isn’t busy we trade local chit chat, share observation on local or national politics, and connect. This station also has a garage I frequent. Does it Take me longer to get gas at TC’s not really even the self-serves sometimes have lines that prevent immediate fill-up. I like the idea of shopping locally, supporting a business that provides jobs to people who need the work. This has nothing to do with laziness as for years I pumped my own I just like the feel of shopping locally – just as I like shopping the small store owner over the big box. Oh and the day I left my wallet on the breakfast room table and had no money they laughed told me to stop by later and sent me on my way – try that at the anonymous self-serve!
“As far as the vapor recovery nozzles, I hope people won’t try to work around them and disable their function by lifting them up as they fill their tank. This is part of the effort to get St. Louis in compliance with clean air standards. You won’t see them outside the STL Metro area. They prevent many tons of VOCs (Volatile Organic Compounds) from entering the air from the gasoline as people fill their tanks. ”
Sorry, but I’d rather get the full 1 gal in my tank as opposed to the .4 if I don’t lift the sock. Some motorcycle & scooter tanks are built in such a away that you can’t even get the nozzle in far enough to activate the sock WITHOUT simply lifting it up. You can even buy clips, or devices such as this http://www.mccuff.com/ to hold the thing back so you can fill. (There ARE other types of vapor recover nozzles that don’t use the @#%!@$ sock.)
The sock also does not function properly on older vehicle tanks without venting & carbon canisters and all that crap. It won’t let you fill them at all most of the time.
Anyway, all the scooterists in St. Louis, filling their tiny 1-gal tanks while holding up the sock would probably release fewer VOC’s than if just one person filling the tank on their 50-gal tank Suburban/Fasion Truck lifted it up!
From what I understand, New Jersey’s law requiring full service stations is largely due to the strong influence of labor unions in the state. We’re lucky the UFCW isn’t as strong here, or we’d never have gotten the self-checkout machines.
I really don’t see how anyone would benefit from bringing this to Missouri. The lines would be longer, jobs that are created would simply be unenviable, entry level ones and the cost of gas, after factoring in a tip, would be largely the same, if not more (the station owners have to offset the costs of these new employees somewhere).
Ah yes NJ. I will be trading in my NJ license this weekend for a MO one!
The price of NJ gas is lower than more other north east places even with Full Service is two primary reasons:
1. Low gas tax.
2.The Colonial Pipeline (one of the largest or largest) pipelines that carry petrolum products ends in NJ. (aka cheap cost to get gas in NJ)
So if MO ever decided to make Full service mandatory to create jobs two things wil happen.
1. Gas price will increase A LOT
2. Gas Stations will most likely go out of business. (Gas stations make PENNIES on the gallon) Most oil profits come from the E&P-Exploration and Production. The retail side is a joke, unless they have a full retail outlet at the gas station that sells food/drinks/etc.
More labor = higher costs. The last thing we need is another government mandate – let the market decide if there’s any demand. Yes, there are a few people willing to pay another 10 or 20 cents a gallon, but I’m not one of them. If we need to create jobs, better to pursue ones in renewable energy than in “make work” ones.
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BTW, I once stopped at a station near the Oklahoma-Colorado border that was completely unattended. You had to pay by credit card, there was no human cashier on site. Apparently there was off-site video monitoring and some sort of intercom link – I can see that being the wave of the future before we see a return to the pump jockeys of old . . .
The last thing we need at gas pumps is a government mandate determining who lifts the pump handle, because this is, as pointed out, nothing more than a “make work” situation that does not advance our society. Please don’t confuse necessary government oversight and regulation (of industries that produce, package and sell food or drugs, or that build structures for public occupancy or systems of publicly accessible transport for instance) for simple “government mandates” that provide no real regulatory service that protects the citizenry. Simply letting the market decide all things obviously will not result in a very balanced society, and government mandates in the form of regulation of markets and industry is overwhelmingly a good thing.
NJ gas: $2.97
Pennsylvania gas: $3.17
NJ gas tax: 14.5 cents
Pennsylvania gas tax: 31.1 cents
There’s about 3/4 of your price difference.
PS –
Missouri gas tax: 17 cents
Illinois gas tax: 19 cents + 6.25% state sales tax + 0.3% underground storage tank fund + other local sales and gasoline taxes
Why would we mandate entry-level jobs? In no way does this promote furthering of oneself in order to move beyond the entry-level. Its not like these jobs will be filled by teens and recent high school graduates entering the workforce for the first time. Mandating this type of job creates costs for all of us. We all will have to pay more for gasoline, which will hurt those in the lowest economic bracket the worst. Then when Missourians get fed up with paying a premium for something they can do themselves you end up with several losing jobs. And the people that lost their job are no more qualified for anything than they were before (this is not unlike what happened in Illinois with their Vehicle Emissions Techs). Instead of creating jobs, charge a tax on gas or whatever that goes towards education and/or training that can help those in need move beyond the entry-level.
I’d say you’re right on track STeel.
As a current resident of New Jersey, I have a few thoughts:
1. Gas is cheap in NJ for a number of reasons, not the least of which is the number of refineries in the state, which I am sure Steve saw quite well during is drive through Elizabeth and Newark.
2. The most frustrating thing about the full-service requirement is that when you are in a rush, you often must wait for the attendant to come over and pump the gas. Once or twice I have hopped out and pumped it myself because I was tired of waiting and in a hurry.
3. When gas prices spiked a few years ago right after Katrina, the Governor of NJ authorized a test project for self-service gas stations on the Turnpike to see whether that would lower gas prices. The plan was subsequently scraped.
4. At the time of the self-service test program, I remember remarking to a friend that while moving to self-service gas stations might reduce the cost of gas slights, I was willing to bet that that monetary gain would be quickly offset by increased government costs for the unemployment and welfare system. Truthfully, most gas station attendants are the most marginal workers in the labor market: usually low-skill immigrant workers. These workers will come into a State like New Jersey regardless of whether gas stations are full or self-service. Yet, by having full-service stations, the residents of the State pay for these immigrants and the services they likely require at the gas pump than solely through taxes. Pay it however you like, but it will be paid. I for one would rather have them working than just on the government dole.
Sinclair stations do offer full service, for the same price (I am almost sure). There is one at Hanley and Delmar.
Some one could enlighten me, but does pumping your gas constitute a ‘tipping event’ if the price is the same?
The problem with entry level jobs nowadays is that they are often an entry only to themselves. I am inclined to think if we create more entry-level jobs in Missouri they should be something other than low-paying or miserable, since realistically people could be stuck at them for years.
Pumping gas in St. Louis summers is a dreadful job that I wish on no one, but accept myself as a cost of wanting to drive somewhere in the heat.
Do these attendants ask for tips?
STLMark,
That was one of the first questions I asked someone when I came to New Jersey.
No you do not need to (and no one here does) tip the attendants.
Off-topic,
But given that you are in Boston, might I suggest a trip to:
A. Commonwealth Avenue Mall
B. The Park Spaces and the curvilinear “mall” created by the “Big Dig” project.
given the local planning efforts on the Gateway Mall.
I don’t think we need more slave jobs because Americans are lazy.
“The fact that it makes access to gas a bit tougher is a bonus in my view. What’s the rush people?”
Well, if people are waiting in lines to get gas, they’re probably waiting with the engine on thus causing more pollution.
Creating jobs that don’t add value doesn’t seem like a good idea.
Chris
Sorry folks, you’re all off the mark on this one.
I was in Oregon shortly after they started their full-service-only mandate. The reason for eliminating self-service had nothing to do with a jobs creation program, it came from a lawsuit filed by those who claimed (probably rightfully whether we agree or not) that lower self-service prices was unfair to the elderly and handicapped drivers who needed full service. And, with the new mandate, the need for attendants did of course send the full-service-only prices through the roof. To make matters even more daunting, if a customer was to pump their own gas, both the gas station and the customer would be heavily fined or even jailed for repeat offenses, even if the customer voluntarily or even out of habit got out of their car to attempt to pump their own gas (as I was screamed at when attempting to do so). But if you’ve ever seen a wheelchair assisted driver attempt to pump their own gas, or an elderly person attempt to pump their own gas on an icy gas station lot, you clearly respect how difficult it can be for them to do so and why the lawsuit had merit.
Also, New Jersey has talways had very low gas prices because of all the refineries based there…low transportation costs lowers the cost of gas…simple enough to understand.
If we park our cars and take metro, we won’t need to worry about who pumps the gas… Oh, sorry… that could only happen in a parallel universe.
so how do you do a drive off then with an attendant?
Uncle W: that’s an interesting perspective I hadn’t considered (relatives with mobility issues here).
Considering the stories of asshats around – leaving the engine running, smoking, etc. (none should need to be said…) it might be safer for all of us.
Creating mandatory jobs is poor economics. Jobs should be created through economic growth rather than government mandates benefits everyone.
I hate buying gas in Oregon (where I’m FROM). After waiting in a slow line, not only will they not check your oil, they won’t let you out of your car to check it yourself. As for interpersonal interaction; be grateful if the pump jockey is cordial enough to grunt at you.
My understanding was that they outlawed self-serve for safety reasons. Joe Blow is too stupid to pump his own gas without blowing up his car. If it were, in fact, for the benefit of the disabled driver, perhaps they could require gas vendors to pump gas at the self-serve price for those who have handicapped license plates, rather than burden the entire population with the inconvenience.
urbanian:
that makes too much sense – choice? free market? service based on need?. and yeah last I drove through OR in the early-mid 90’s, didn’t know the rules and you’re right they were kinda jerky. But I still don’t trust my neighbor to not be an utter idiot. I don’t think it things to be regulated, but on the other hand, evolution is just too slow.
god I hate typos:
sorry, not “it things”
but rather that “things need to be” (outside of the FDA – Upton Sinclair fan here)
It seems all of the comments here are flowing downstream now… Free market is good, but good where the market should be free, government mandates in the form of regulation is good, but good where regulation of market activity should be regulated. If some believe that there SHOULD be a market for something, where there currently is not, those some will need to convince others that those others should want that something. This is a simple concept.
This would never happen in Missouri. Why don’t we just create jobs for people to build buildings only to tear them down again as soon as they’re finished? That sounds just as useful as someone else pumping my own gas.
The unemployed can make more money on welfare than a job like this and not chafe me in the process.
As a resident of north county, where service in retail establishments is almost uniformly slow and surly, I hate to think of the delays that would result from a full-service gas mandate. As far as being smart enough to pump gas … well, with the notable exception of QuickTrip stations, I can say with confidence that the average poster here is far more intelligent than the average gas station attendant. Haven’t you folks listened to “Moron Trivia” on the Glenn Beck show?
I try very, very hard not to have to listen to Glenn Beck at any time, in any place, or for any reason. I’d rather get paid a pittance to stand in the freezing cold and pump gas into the cars of people who are capable of pumping their own gas than listen to Glenn Beck.
Funny Nick the station that I described was in North County – Florissant actually. I don’t know where you are shopping but I find that store clerks ANYHWERE in the metro area are cordial and polite if treated so by the customers that they serve. Do I run into the occasional sour attitude sure but all my days aren’t sunny and light either.
“We’re lucky the UFCW isn’t as strong here, or we’d never have gotten the self-checkout machines.”
Eh? I do prefer self-serve gas, but I also greatly prefer pay-at-the-pump. If you have to go inside to pay, it may as well be full-serve as far as I am concerned.
But I think the self-checkouts at Schnucks are ridiculous! Half the time they break down, they are very annoying and loud in telling you to place all your items in the bag, and if somebody in line in front of you is buying alcohol (as about 3/4 of the customers at Grand & Gravois are!), then they still have to go to the attendant for an I.D. check.
At Shop N Save, you have to bag your own groceries anyway, and that’s the tradeoff for somewhat lower prices. So I’m ok with using self-checkout there; if it’s just a handful of items, it’s a little faster than going to the bagging benches along the wall.
But if you are at Schnucks, you pay the same price regardless of whether you use a traditional check-out or self check-out. It’s totally different from the full-serve vs. self-serve debate, where historically at least there was a significant price differential. And it’s not as if grocery baggers are making $15/hour. It’s about 1/2 that, even with a union.
Christine – I live in Ferguson. Because it is a walkable urban community, I love living here. But the service is HORRIBLE. I used to think the St. Ann WalMart was the worst one in the world until I moved here. At Shop ‘n Save, we’re lucky if they have 3 lines open during rush time. Same with tellers at my US Bank branch. Our Walgreens consistently has prescriptions ready several hours later than promised, requiring a third visit to the store. The contrast with identical businesses in Chesterfield is shocking. Actually, something good did come out of our Walgreens situation – I “discovered” a locally owned independent pharmacy half a block down the street, where they take care of you so quickly that you don’t even have a chance to shop. I’ll never go to Walgreens again, which overall, is actually a good thing.
Gee, lets just mandate new jobs into the economy. That would be so efficient.
Not.
“If it were, in fact, for the benefit of the disabled driver, perhaps they could require gas vendors to pump gas at the self-serve price for those who have handicapped license plates, rather than burden the entire population with the inconvenience.”
In fact, California has a requirement that service stations pump gas for the disabled as you proposed. It doesn’t work in the real world since the law only requires this if the station has more than one employee working. How many gas stations around here have more than one employee working at a time? Some have none. This isn’t really an issue if you know your local stations and pick one during the day with a repair garage. At night, forget about it. If you are out of your neighborhood or traveling?
It is an interesting thought that we could displace some of the unemployment we pay out with these types of jobs. I just fear that some people would find those jobs to be careers instead of stopgaps like unemployment. In that case, those jobs will be filled and unavailable for the temporarily displaced.
I pay for full service all the time. My reasons are many and sometimes petty:
I don’t want gas on me or my clothes
It’s cold/hot outside
I want my tires (sometimes oil) checked and I don’t want road grime on my hands
I have a toddler in the back seat who will probably pitch a fit if I leave him in the car
It gives me a minute to safely read my blackberry
I visit a gas station 2 times a month at most so who cares about the added $3
No-accounts in NJ/NY where I used to live. In Queens too lazy to come around to driver’s side (gas cap on passenger’s) to collect money. had to roll down window. In NJ came with rental car once (own car in shope) the jerk noticed. I said car in shop “what is it..a Porsche?” I went to school twelve years to be an MD-what did HE ever do??
Boycott bars and restaurants too. Destroy capitlist miniumum wage jobs.
The responses on here are part of why I love Missouri so much. We do things for ourselves here.
Hey Dan
How nice you do things for “yourself” in Missouri, that’s another reason why I would never visit it.
As for the real world there are people who cannot pump the fuel themselves. These folks are being completely left out of the mix. They have to get their wheelchairs out and try to swipe the card and the rest of it.
Unless you’re like Dan or his implying “Missoryites”, is that what ya’ll r called? do someone a favor and pump the gas for them. It alls comes back to you in the end.
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