Poll: What activity do you want to see added to the Gateway Mall?
Now that I have been appointed to serve on the Gateway Mall Advisory Board I’m thinking about the master plan and what details still need to be worked out. One of those is activities in some of the blocks. As a representative of the people I know to get a sense of what you think is needed somewhere along the linear park.
The question is:Â What activity would you like to see added to the Gateway Mall? Pick only one:
- Tennis
- Ice skating
- Skateboard/BMX park
- Picnic/BBQ area
- Basketball
- Level field for kickball, etc
- Minature golf
- Farris Ferris wheel
- Dog park
- Unsure
- Other
I have some strong feelings about what will work better than others but I want to get your viewpoint before I share mine.  The poll is open until the morning of Sunday March 28, 2010. I will share the results on Wednesday March 31, 2010. Please vote in the poll on the right and share any thoughts you have below.
– Steve Patterson
Ferris wheel, not Farris wheel . . .
The fundamental question is whether we want a park to look at (as a foreground to the Arch) or a park to use/meet the needs of St Louis citizens. If it's the latter, we then need to balance concentrating activities (and expenditures) here, versus distributing them citywide. Finally, there's the question of whether this should be a “neighborhood” park, primarily serving the needs of nearby residents, or a “regional” park, serving a much larger population. I don't have strong feelings either way, but the larger philosophical questions need to be answered, and a direction set, before specific programatic elements are added or approved – land and budgets are both finite . . . .
New construction – mixed use – with underground parking.
Hmm…none of these choices seem appealing. Are these the ones being bandied about in the Advisory Board's grand hall? I went ahead and 'other'd' in a multi-block jogging track, even though that doesn't make much sense considering the whole downtown can and does fit that need.
Ultimately, my vision for the Gateway Mall is to use it as a means of, you know, westward expansion. Ironic, isn't it, that is known for that phrase doesn't even do it itself? River-14 blocks-STOP. The Gateway Mall should encourage westward exploration of the city and westward development by its occupants and prospective businesses.
The master plan has some flexibility. The Advisory Board will meet for the first time next month.
I'm with Kevin, the choices to vote on seem more appropriate for one of the mulitple city or side parks – do we really want sports fields on the mall? Downtown residents need a dog park, but is it really appropriate for the mall? These ideas seem much more appropriate to the Chotteau Greenway. Heck we already got a softball field next to Busch stadium and you see how well that goes over.
The other items seem more in line with a entertainment district like Laclede's Landing. I feel that Ferris Wheel and any idea of miniature golf should be focused on the riverfront and tied to close proximity to the Arch Grounds, Casino and the Riverfront trail head.
I think the biggest week points of the mall at the moment are as follows
Sclupture Park is one block short of its full potential
Improve grounds and build an fixed stage next to Tucker, summer events work well on this stretch of the mall. Why change the atmosphere. We should improve amenitites that make events like Taste of St. Louis, St. Louis Go Marathon, St. Patty's Day parade, etc. stronger
Finally, the westend of the mall won't reach its potential until the 22nd street interchange is rebuilt and the city street grid is back intact. Now you have a reason to go westward and promote the city. I believe McKee has things right for this part of the city and we need to go full speed ahead with getting a signature tower/office building on the West End. Bring people and jobs to the west end of the mall will bring back use as well as make Union Station stronger.
The Mall needs to incorporate both neighborhood, city and regional amenities. To me and others I talk to, it would be a waste to see too much of the park as sports related recreational space (and I am a big proponent of sports). The St. Louis City and County already has plenty of those in the system, though a few downtown would be a good thing.
City Garden was a step in the right direction, despite some design flaws. (Why so many views into the park were blocked makes no sense!) It would be nice if these spaces had unique amenities and design features that made people from the region want to come visit…like say Pioneer Courthouse Square (Portland, OR); Campus Martius Detroit, MI; Rittenhouse Square, Philadelphia, PA; Millennium Park, Chicago, IL and the list goes on. A good site to visit for you Steve…and anyone else interested… is the Project for Public Spaces (you all might have already seen this website .. not sure).
Two things I would really like to see from a programing stand point are a place for a local farmers market and a place for entertainment, particularly shows. It is important to remember that these spaces need to be flexible in their use. The worse public spaces are those used irregularly, so flexibility is key in spaces not highly programed.
Sorry for the rambling in there… its late.
Thank you! A stage is part of the master plan East of Tucker and a stage already exists in the May Amphitheater part of Kiener Plaza. I like the idea of a market space.
Its kind of hard to extend the mall westward when the civil courts building kind of breaks up any continuity. People park cars there you don't get the sense that there's a mall beyond it. I'd want to see something that rectifies that, something as simple as red clay stones bordering the mall (maybe?). How do people really know they're on the gateway mall or how far it extends? You kind of have no choice but to walk it and find out. Gateway one creates that same confinement feeling as well. People should know that its a mall and not one or two blocks. Central Park is great in that its monolithic it isn't interrupted by any streets. I'm not sure if people would take to closing off. I just don't know if the dream can be achieved if the mall is broken up over blocks.
Restoring the 22nd street interchange will be great too. I think a tower would work well there and could anchor new development on the westend which would be great.
As for programming, I would like to see an ice rink I just want foot traffic up and down market and chestnut. Its not an easy job to develop all that space. Put up a huge statue of Chouteau or something. Or make an “Urban Maze” that can be easily reconfigured — that'd be a fun cheap way to cross from market to chestnut right? Finding your way through a maze. Or you could put it running E/W in washington park.
The “Hallway” is supposed to tie all the blocks together. The maze idea is interesting!
I like the maze idea too, but I caution putting areas in the Mall that lack visibility. Walls, crevices and sunken areas always pose a crime threat. With that said I believe there are ways to create a maze that allows the community to keep an eye on activity. There is a maze somewhere, forget where, that has the maze on the ground via different pavement patterns and materials. That could work or possibly get more creative and make the maze something new and unique.
You can make it a glass maze http://faculty.smu.edu/uschultz/smuinsl/Maze.jpg That might also make it easier to reconfigure down the line? My concern is keeping it challenging and I think something like that depends on how much space is available to it.
Agree on the cars, and not just at the courts buildings. One “easy” solution, for all blocks, would be to narrow the cross streets to the minimum travel lanes required, and eliminate all on-street parking, converting as much pavement as possible back to park uses.
Agree on narrowing streets but strongly disagree on eliminating on-street parking. Way too much paving now but eliminating on-street parking is totally wrong.
I know your knee-jerk response is that “on-street parking is good”, but this only holds true if it's occupied by parked vehicles. Otherwise, it makes a two-lane street, visually, into a four-lane street, and speeds increase. On-street parking works best, duh, when there's adjacent uses creating a demand for it – urban retail storefronts and higher-density residential areas are two classic examples. Parks, in contrast, usually don't create the same demand – look at Arsenal, for example, along Tower Grove Park Parking on the south side is usually full; parking on the north side is only full when there's a special event in the park. The Gateway Mall already struggles from being viewed as being too long for many people to walk. It's already interrupted by a couple of tall buildings. City Garden obviously works better for pedestrians with 9th Street being closed. Personally, I think closing more of the “minor” cross streets would be the best solution, but I realize that that's probably a non-starter. That's why I'd settle for block-long bulb-outs on the mall, on those streets (6th, 13th, 17th & 18th).
I'd also recommend adding a landscaped median on 11th, to separate the court parking from the traffic lanes. Yes, it would essentially be creating a parking lot, and could possibly be viewed as changing the historic charcter of the site, but the reality is that 11th wasn't a one-way street coming off a freeway in the 1930's.
Finally, why does only Google Maps show the Mall only running from 12th to 21st? Are the two sculpture parks and Kiener Plaza considered to be separate entities? Does the Master Plan (and the Commission's authority) end at 12th? Or does it extend all the way to Broadway?
You are correct that when on-street parking is given a full lane it can be bad when empty. But your solution of removing parking is the knee-jerk one. Create bulbs outs to reduce the width of through lanes while providing parking in places. This distributes parking rather than clustering it.
And there is nothing to conclude that Citygarden “obviously works better for pedestrians with 9th Street being closed.” What is the basis for this statement? I think it is harmful having the street closed. As the hallway is extended in both directions people may not think to look for cars on side streets as a result. People thought pedestrian malls would be great pedestrian spaces because cars were removed. Wrong!
If City Garden didn't work better for pedestrians with 9th Street closed, then why is there the ongoing effort and the daily closures? I'm also not advocating for removing all parking around the mall, just on the north-south, numbered streets. I do think that on-street parking should be kept on Market and Chestnut. And, like I said, the best solution is to get through traffic out of parks – just close 6th, 9th, 13th & 17th, and let drivers use Broadway, 7th, 8th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 14th, 15th, 18th & 20th to get to either side of the mall.
Just because 9th has been closed daily since the Citygarden opened is not proof that it is “better” closed.
Agree on narrowing streets but strongly disagree on eliminating on-street parking. Way too much paving now but eliminating on-street parking is totally wrong.
I think the current green space is great the way it is. However any time I have thought about taking a book to read in the park across from the “new” post office all the seating is always full of vagrants and bums. Whether these people actually present a security risk to me is perhaps questionable, but even so, who wants to be solicited for money when trying to enjoy your lunch?
Fix that issue and then we can use what is already there.
My tongue-in-cheek “other” vote was an RV campground for Arch visitors. My “real” votes would be for a signature skateboard park and/or a signature Frisbee golf course, ones that could attract national attention and national events like the Dew Tour. Focusing on “newer” sports, favored by Gen X and Gen Y would a) help improve the city's image, b) be a better long-term investment, and c) be responsive to the demographc we want living and investing in the city. Plus, being centrally located and close to transit also makes this location ideal for one-off projects that would serve youth from around the city and region (unlike, for example, Forest Park).
One concept Denver embraced in their master plan for Skyline Park, a similar but smaller urban park, was a “series of rooms”. That park is 4 blocks long and a half block wide. The original Lawrence Halpern plan, which was pretty consistent for the entire length, was replaced by a master plan that provides specific responses to the current urban context of each block – some are more high-activity, high-use, multi-use spaces, while others are more passive and others focus on recreational areas for nearby residents.
Given that that seems to be the current direction here, along with the multi-block length, the trick will be defiining and applying unifying elements to tie together what we already have with new programmatic elements. The other challenge will be balancing specific uses (pick any from the list) with finite resources – if a skate park is built, where do we put the bocce ball court or the shuffleboard courts? Do you allow “minor” sports to build little-used facilities here, or do we steer them elsewhere in the city or to the private sector? Who gets the “better” blocks (further east?)? What do we put on the western end to shift the “center of gravity? Can we tie into the renovation of the Central Library? Would more concessions be a good thing? For dining, equipment rental, a bike station and/or public-private partnerships? Lots of possibilities and many constituencies – hopefully progress overcomes inertia and politics as usual . . .
I like the rooms ideas, but Skyline park has typically been seen as a failure, as few people frequent that park and there are issues tying the park in with the surrounding buildings. Though it might be a good place to study to lean what to do and what not. There are some pretty cool things happening there, but there are some odd things too.
I know the Halpern design was considered a failure (after only 30 years); I thought the current changes were being better accepted.
The Halpern design was created in the middle of an urban renewal area, so creating berms, paths and three dimensionality seemed like a good way to screen the surrounding surface parking. Now that most of the parking has been replaced by mid and high rise buildings, both the context and the crime levels have changed, as have the demands on park space downtown. The new plan minimizes hiding places and increases visibility from the street. I left Denver before the plan was implemented, but I haven't heard much, negative or positive, which is a change from the increasing negatives about the old plan – I can only assume that it's an improvement.
I do agree that it would be a good example to study, since there are some similarities, both good and bad. The other Denver park woryth studying woulkd be Commons Park, where a railyard was converted to a new park and primarily surrounded by midrise housing. You gotta wonder if that could be a vision for the Gateway Mall, especially the north side, toward the west end? The views would be great, it would be quieter than parts of Washington, and there's probably more demand for new housing in this part of downtown than for new office space.
Your pretty much right on with the Halpern original design. Being there just a month ago and getting feedback from local landscape architects and citizens… it seems to still be struggling. They did a poor job of activating and connecting the buildings with the park/plaza spaces. Also the adjacent streets pose a problem, as they break up the spaces too much. Some of the design moves make it hard to cross the street and into the park. I heard they are in the process of redesigning it yet again. Sad story there, because there is much potential.
Commons Park is a pretty interesting place, with some cool ideas. It would be worth taking a look to see what works there and why.
Not sure if my last message made it through…
I picked the miniature golf concept because it is more for everybody; not everyone can play kickball, skateboard or even tennis! And I would come down and bring our out of state visitors to play and check out the view a lot!
I wanna see new buildings built, they dont need that loser of a waste of space. Fix the memorial / 70 issue and then the arch park can finally be used.
I don't have much constructive to say, other than that I'd like to see something not already present in downtown, or, better yet, St. Louis entirely. If there's going to be a farmer's market at the Old Post Office Plaza (and Tower Grove, and Soulard, and WU, etc), having one on the Mall, so close to OPO, seem redundant. Do we even have enough farmers to go around? Likewise, a skating rink might be nice, but do we want to split our “ice skating population” in half between downtown and Steinberg? Is there enough interest for both? I don't know, but I think it's something to consider. Adding something unique, a draw for the whole region like Citygarden, something people don't get elsewhere, seems like a better way to bring people in rather than replicating something from elsewhere in the city.
I do think you can get some multiple uses outside the norm of popular sports or for profit entertainment venues. Lets face it, the region already has plenty of sport facilities. Your already a short metrolink, bus, car ride away from Forest Park. Also, having farmers markets/summer night outdoor movies/dogparks/etc on the mall will only take away from Post Office Plaza, Lucas Park and even Soulards Farmers Market for that matter. Why sacarifice the smaller parks when the community is trying to embrace them and want the intimate space they offer?
Instead, Why not a ice skate rink at Kiener Plaza for the holiday season (Thanksgiving to New Years only) and then have it as a temporary BMX/skateboard park from Spring to Fall. Every so often you move the portable ramps, rails, etc. around to give it a different feel or look. You can even keep the bowl. If it gets out of hand, pull up the truck, load the ramps and point is made.
Another thought, why not a Frisbee park along Tucker Ave during non event weekends. You might get some ownership in having a group interested in maintaining turf as well as having the space gets used a significant amount of the year.
I do differ on a couple things, why embrace central park mentality when we have Forest Park? Why embrace the mall as a continouos space? I believe some space would be well suited for structures considering that Kiener Plaza, City Garden, and Tucker are morphing into their own. Structures/activity will only make them better spaces. Don't really think that is bad. In my mind, the big picture should focus on the west end and how it can help the city go forward.
Ryan and tpekren I hadn't realized there is going to be a farmers market at the Old Post Office Plaza. Thats terrific. If that is the case then I agree another at the Mall might be too redundant. But to me those type of programs are what the mall needs. I for one would like to see some highly organized festivals take place there. I am talking about harvest, beer, music, art and the list goes on. St. Louis has been in need of unique events… not only for recreation, but as means to get a break from the typical and to serve as a way we can get together and spark creativity, which has been lacking here for too long. Possibly even have places with the ability to morph from spaces where people eat lunch and people watch to a place where workshops and other learning environments emerge.
How about something like and eco-revelatory park? Or something that actively and in an interesting way educates about the many historical elements that made St. Louis what it is today and throughout history? I really like how the city museum brings to light the manufacturing past of St. Louis. Could there be a cool history of how the Mississippi River was created?
What about a kaleidoscope park where people can engage in the use of large scale kaleidoscopes that cast interesting shapes and colors on the landscape?
There is my brainstorming for the day. Hopefully there is a good idea or two in there… Just thinking aloud.
Aren't the Taste of St. Louis, Rib America, the Moonlight Ramble and Live on the Levee already held here? Yeah, having programming EVERY weekend would “energize” the park. It would also turn it into a commercial venue and likely pull other events out of other parks (St. Louis Microfest in Forest Park and Pridefest in Tower Grove Park, to name just two), plus severely abuse the turf. Sometimes parks just need to be quiet spaces . . .
I was thinking that these events would be monthly, if that, not every weekend. Also they would be new events, not relocation of past events. To me though, Live on the Levee should be on the waterfront though. My main complaint is that there could be a better set up for most of these events. Plus the Mall is 16 blocks worth of park and some of that space should be more intimate and quite. It would be great to have at least one space where people could do some soul searching and connecting with nature, in similar ways that occur in Japanese or healing gardens.
I like a lot of these suggestions, especially those that tie in to the history of the area. I'm surprised at how little some residents know about the history of the city/region, and anything we can do to emphasize it I'd be on board with. I think anything that's not already done somewhere else in the city or in another park should be up for consideration for part of the mall.
Ryan and tpekren I hadn't realized there is going to be a farmers market at the Old Post Office Plaza. Thats terrific. If that is the case then I agree another at the Mall might be too redundant. But to me those type of programs are what the mall needs. I for one would like to see some highly organized festivals take place there. I am talking about harvest, beer, music, art and the list goes on. St. Louis has been in need of unique events… not only for recreation, but as means to get a break from the typical and to serve as a way we can get together and spark creativity, which has been lacking here for too long. Possibly even have places with the ability to morph from spaces where people eat lunch and people watch to a place where workshops and other learning environments emerge.
How about something like and eco-revelatory park? Or something that actively and in an interesting way educates about the many historical elements that made St. Louis what it is today and throughout history? I really like how the city museum brings to light the manufacturing past of St. Louis. Could there be a cool history of how the Mississippi River was created?
What about a kaleidoscope park where people can engage in the use of large scale kaleidoscopes that cast interesting shapes and colors on the landscape?
There is my brainstorming for the day. Hopefully there is a good idea or two in there… Just thinking aloud.
Ryan and tpekren I hadn't realized there is going to be a farmers market at the Old Post Office Plaza. Thats terrific. If that is the case then I agree another at the Mall might be too redundant. But to me those type of programs are what the mall needs. I for one would like to see some highly organized festivals take place there. I am talking about harvest, beer, music, art and the list goes on. St. Louis has been in need of unique events… not only for recreation, but as means to get a break from the typical and to serve as a way we can get together and spark creativity, which has been lacking here for too long. Possibly even have places with the ability to morph from spaces where people eat lunch and people watch to a place where workshops and other learning environments emerge.
How about something like and eco-revelatory park? Or something that actively and in an interesting way educates about the many historical elements that made St. Louis what it is today and throughout history? I really like how the city museum brings to light the manufacturing past of St. Louis. Could there be a cool history of how the Mississippi River was created?
What about a kaleidoscope park where people can engage in the use of large scale kaleidoscopes that cast interesting shapes and colors on the landscape?
There is my brainstorming for the day. Hopefully there is a good idea or two in there… Just thinking aloud.
I feel like the most urban choices would be a skate park or an ice skating rink. The rink would provide an alternative to the one in Forest Park and is almost always full (and can double as roller hockey rink in the summer). I see plenty of skateboarders jumping steps and feel that they would be safer doing it in a controller environment meant for the purpose.
The other choices are too suburban and are available in many parks throughout the city, and I believe the whole point is to encourage people to come and stay downtown.
Of course, the other option is to not do anything and save the money instead of raising our taxes even higher as we are already paying some of the highest taxes in the near-by counties.
Like Forest Park, the money will likely come from private sources.
To repeat a previous question – Google Maps shows the Mall only running between 12th and 21st Streets. Are the two sculpture parks and Kiener Plaza considered to be separate entities? And does the Master Plan (and the Advisory Board's authority) end at 12th? Or does it extend all the way to Broadway?
If you click the provided link for the Gateway Mall you will see that it runs from 20th to Broadway (5th). Kiener Plaza to Aloe Plaza.
They are not separate, they are included in the design process.
I want a new velodrome! Mr. Bumby Face out at penrose park is great and all, but I want to have it downtown!
I voted for basketball court, as that was my first thought. But, as I think about it, I think a skate park is the best urban option. It's something that will draw teenagers and younger people downtown and I am sure that it will always be in use. It also provides room for creativity to incorporate it in an artistic manner.
For starters, I'd like to see that building in the middle of the mall demolished. You know which one. Talk about a mood destroyer. Next, every other cross street through the mall should be eliminated to create more continuity. That said, the list of options is quite frankly, appalling. Basketball courts? That's a joke, right?
The following streets are already closed: 6th, 9th (sort of), 16th, and 19th. I listed as many options as I could think of so everyone could vote. I can't imagine basketball (or tennis) but I wanted to see how they would do.
How 'bout facilities for bocce ball, lawn bowling, sand volleyball, horseshoes and that St. Louis favorite, warshers?!
With regard to ideas about the Gateway Mall: remove the Serra “sculpture”; throw it into the River; and replace it with statues of Chouteau and Laclede