Most Readers Keen On Sunken Public Spaces, But Many Not
Readers like the changes of level offered by sunken spaces, here are the results from last week’s poll:
Q:Â How do you feel about sunken public spaces like the May Amphitheater?
- I like the change of levels. 62 [52.1%]
- Not good, it is hard to see activity going on. 36 [30.25%]
- Unsure/no opinion 12 [10.08%]
- Other answer… 9 [7.56%]
The other answers were:
- I don’t care for them; they are just plain ulgy!
- Ok for certain uses, like an amphitheatre, but not really a good idea otherwise
- Not sure, this needs a refresh on its look.
- great for events like Macy’s Holiday Celebration
- Doesn’t work unless their is natural contours to work with
- Nice to have elevations as long as one elevation feeds to street level
- It depends on context
- It makes a great place to skateboard.
- Love em, they draw my attention right to em
So you can see people around the edge during an event but you have no clue how many are inside.
From the outside you can’t see the stage or get any sense of the activity happening within.  Some changes of level, such as at Citygarden, is good but  a hidden hole is bad.
– Steve Patterson
Kind of sounds like you and the Gateway Mall Council have made up your mind concerning Kiener? Or are at least embracing the flat pavilion proposed by MVVA?
Personally, I like the bowl in Kiener. It could be well served, however, by more dedicated vendor spots in and around it so workers and visitors downtown really begin to utilize it as a meeting/eating/relaxing spot.
I made up my mind years ago about the bowl, very bad idea.
Yet the majority in your poll believe otherwise? Who needs to be reeducated? You or the masses?
What if the bowl was extended out so its highest edge ran up against the sidewalk in places? For instance, if it was pushed out almost to the 7th Street sidewalk/curb then your sightline would show you the whole of the bowl (while simultaneously adding more flat-level space at its base for traditional activities).
I've never liked the bowl. There's actually very little about Kiener Plaza that I do like.
I don't quite understand what is wrong with the bowl…I get the visual connection idea but I actually like the fact that you see a few people at the top, walk closer to see what is going on, and have the area open up in front of you. Not sure how an amphitheater works without some type of bowl arrangement or grade change.
With a bowl people can't see what is going on until they are upon it, often keeping people away. Carving seating into a natural slope is not a “sunken” area.
This sounds kind of fishy to me. Methinks you're “reaching” for rationale to buttress whatever your true but so-far unmentioned, reason may be.
A bowl is great if one of the areas can be seen from the street level. Look at millenium park in chicago. It has several elevations and 90% of the people enter at street level and make their way up to The Bean & theater. If you enter from the theater level then you are essentially looking down into a bowl towards Michigan Ave. Either way, you can always see the activity within and the visual draws people to the physical. The amphitheater at Kiener Plaza doesn't have any way to reveal the size or content of the activity from any great distance.
Exactly!
Whether are not the bowl is sunken is not the problem, the real problem is the surroundings. Kiener Plaza is not surrounded with bustling urban activity. There is some to be sure, but St. Louis planners have no clue how to handle public space, that coupled with at best an average transit system makes the question about sunken or not moot. The first question should be does this function as a true public space and I would say it falls short in too many ways.
Sunken space has traditionally been used for theater and public events, but if the urban fabric relating to the space does not support these applications then you end up with a public space with uncertain functionality and uncertain public perception. That ambiguity is reflected here.
Kiener plaza is underutilized as a “venue.” Outside of the rare Democratic Convention 2012 bid or Start/Finish line for races, it rarely has programming.
Some of this has to do with the parking garages to its immediate north and some of it has to do with the seven (counting the manicured median) to its south.
As the “center” of downtown, you're right, it should be more active, and on a consistant basis. Old Post Office Plaza is doing this to an extent, and promoters/organizers can use this space similarly (or ideally, complimentary).
I still think Kiener Plaza West – as it currently stands – can and will be an active, local/visitor centerpiece. The depressed area is perfect for both concerts and organizational events. The trick is to create reasons for folk to seek it out — either through sensory activators like sound, smell or sight or through regular, community-focused events.
Any space that requires active programming requires one or more sponsors. The city's parks department certainly doesn't have the funds, so it remains for either one of the downtown advocacy groups or some private firm to fund the activities. Unfortunately, there are multiple similar venues available, be they the arch grounds, our universities, bars with live entertainment, special events that close streets, sports venues, other parks, other communities, etc, etc. Alton is finishing a nice riverfront amphitheater and Laumeier Sculpture Park has an established venue, to name just two. But they all face the same struggles – when they're not in use, they're pretty dead. The only difference here is that it's maybe more visible. And the reality is that this block is no more dead than most other blocks on the Gateway Mall, the only exception being citygarden.
I understand Steve's desire to see more activity downtown. The problem we face is simply one of supply and demand. We have a lot of public and quasi-public spaces and only so many people to populate them and so many dollars to attract them from other areas. Look in the Riverfront Times and you can find multiple things to do every day of the week, and many aren't anywhere near downtown. More density is the most likely solution, but that hinges on improving the local economy – people need jobs, and current vacancy rates aren't promising . . .