Intersection of Chouteau, Vandeventer & Manchester is Bleak
The other day I found myself in the 7-story Chouteau Building located adjacent to the intersection of Chouteau, Vandeventer & Manchester.
Bleak, depressing, and hostile are just some of the adjectives that popped into my head as I looked out the window. The above is just east of the emerging area known now as The Grove:
The Grove is a growing vibrant business and entertainment district along Manchester between Kingshighway and Vandeventer in St. Louis City. In the Grove you can find a diversity of independently owned restaurants, nightlife, retail, and services. It is also home to the premier nightlife in the area, and is a thriving center for the LGBT, artist, and cycling communities in the St. Louis area.
The new “pedestrian-friendly” streetscape project stops short of Vandeventer Ave, extending not far beyond Sarah.
I’m bothered by the idea that we can hope to have a “vibrant” district surrounded by horrible space. I don’t fault the Grove but who is working on the Vandeventer & Chouteau corridors and the intersection where they meet Manchester? Last year it was announced that Bellon’s Wrecking & Salvage has sold the NE corner to Quik Trip which will further degrade the intersection.
The Grove is great but the approach from the east sucks and is getting worse, not better.
– Steve Patterson
Approaching from the west isn’t much better – the intersection of Manchester and Kingshighway is equally bleak.
I see two major challenges, at both ends. One. most vibrant neighborhoods are not scalable, it’s hard to grow them exponentially. There’s a finite number of customers for the businesses centered in the Grove, just like there’s a finite number of customers for the businesses along Cherokee Street or along Manchester in Maplewood. The only way to expand / extend retail nodes is to attract more customers, and what makes these enclaves unique is that they’re small, approachable and different. We appreciate one Atomic Cowboy and one Handle Bar; I’m not sure we’d want a 2-3 mile stretch with 6 of each.
The other challenge is that most of us don’t really want to be at major intersections, either as drivers or pedestrians, and certainly not as residents. QuikTrip and Walgreens like them for obvious business reasons, but I seriously doubt that Atomic Cowboy or Handle Bar would have considered locating at either intersection, choosing instead the more pedestrian-scaled and pedestrian-friendly heart of the Grove. The same thing happens at Cherokee and Jefferson and at Skinker and Delmar, where the major intersections are least desirable (for most users), the main street is less desirable, and the “lesser”, more-pedestrian-scaled street turns out to be the most desirable (for many users).
The only way out of this paradigm is to move away from our choice of the automobile as our primary transportation option. Biking, walking and transit all make it easier to connect neighborhoods without the need for these major intersections, but the way we all live, work, shop and recreate today (and have for the past 65 years) has created the “need” for bigger and “more efficient” major intersections, just to move all our cars and trucks. While I’m sure that that there are few lucky people who can and do live, work and mostly shop within a one-mile radius, the vast majority of us live in one neighborhood, work miles away, shop at various shopping districts, grocery chains and shopping centers, and go to bars, restaurants, venues and events across the region, with the majority of these trips being made in our own car or truck.
Steve, you’re a huge advocate for alternative transportation. Just how did you get to the Chouteau Building on this trip? If it was by car, I’d fully understand. If it was by Metrobus, it should have been noted. I occasionaly pass through this intersection, and it’s never been by anything other than by private vehicle. It’s too far for me to walk, it feels too unsafe to bike, and it would take too long and be too much of a hassle to take the bus. I admit it, I’m a part of the problem, and not a part of the solution. But until the solutions become more viable, I’ll continue to drive and continue to expect the city and MoDOT to move me and everyone else . . . .
Approaching from the west isn’t much better – the intersection of Manchester and Kingshighway is equally bleak.
I see two major challenges, at both ends. One. most vibrant neighborhoods are not scalable, it’s hard to grow them exponentially. There’s a finite number of customers for the businesses centered in the Grove, just like there’s a finite number of customers for the businesses along Cherokee Street or along Manchester in Maplewood. The only way to expand / extend retail nodes is to attract more customers, and what makes these enclaves unique is that they’re small, approachable and different. We appreciate one Atomic Cowboy and one Handle Bar; I’m not sure we’d want a 2-3 mile stretch with 6 of each.
The other challenge is that most of us don’t really want to be at major intersections, either as drivers or pedestrians, and certainly not as residents. QuikTrip and Walgreens like them for obvious business reasons, but I seriously doubt that Atomic Cowboy or Handle Bar would have considered locating at either intersection, choosing instead the more pedestrian-scaled and pedestrian-friendly heart of the Grove. The same thing happens at Cherokee and Jefferson and at Skinker and Delmar, where the major intersections are least desirable (for most users), the main street is less desirable, and the “lesser”, more-pedestrian-scaled street turns out to be the most desirable (for many users).
The only way out of this paradigm is to move away from our choice of the automobile as our primary transportation option. Biking, walking and transit all make it easier to connect neighborhoods without the need for these major intersections, but the way we all live, work, shop and recreate today (and have for the past 65 years) has created the “need” for bigger and “more efficient” major intersections, just to move all our cars and trucks. While I’m sure that that there are few lucky people who can and do live, work and mostly shop within a one-mile radius, the vast majority of us live in one neighborhood, work miles away, shop at various shopping districts, grocery chains and shopping centers, and go to bars, restaurants, venues and events across the region, with the majority of these trips being made in our own car or truck.
Steve, you’re a huge advocate for alternative transportation. Just how did you get to the Chouteau Building on this trip? If it was by car, I’d fully understand. If it was by Metrobus, it should have been noted. I occasionaly pass through this intersection, and it’s never been by anything other than by private vehicle. It’s too far for me to walk, it feels too unsafe to bike, and it would take too long and be too much of a hassle to take the bus. I admit it, I’m a part of the problem, and not a part of the solution. But until the solutions become more viable, I’ll continue to drive and continue to expect the city and MoDOT to move me and everyone else . . . .
The grove is really an isolated neighborhood. Only way to access it is by Bike or Car. I frequently do both. Is there really a need for pedestrian access east on Chouteau. Your talking about a large bridge over lots of railroad lines. Its has to be at least a 1/2 mile to grand with absolutely no business or residential buildings. Who cares if there is no pedestrian access.Â
Glad to see quick trip is doing something with that corner and investing money in the city. That should be the real story here.
The grove is really an isolated neighborhood. Only way to access it is by Bike or Car. I frequently do both. Is there really a need for pedestrian access east on Chouteau. Your talking about a large bridge over lots of railroad lines. Its has to be at least a 1/2 mile to grand with absolutely no business or residential buildings. Who cares if there is no pedestrian access.
Glad to see quick trip is doing something with that corner and investing money in the city. That should be the real story here.
The Grove is served very well by numerous MetroBus lines and the CWE MetroLink station is a short walk to the west end of the commercial district. The QT will displace the excellent Spaghetteria Mamma Mia restaurant.
Bing says it’s 1.2 miles and 23 minutes to walk from the CWE station to the Atomic Cowboy – I’m not sure if that’s truly a “short walk” . . . Spaghetteria Mama Mia moved once before, from Dogtown to this location. I suspect they’ll be able to survive another move, and could likely do better in a better location.
Atomic Cowboy is on the east end. But hey I take the MetroBus that goes right down Manchester. The QT will dramatically alter the corner and not for the better.
I take the bus into the Grove often and have taken Metrolink and walked to the east end of the Grove several times, as my daughter attends the Language Immersion school there. Most people here would agree with you that it isn’t walkable, but I find it to be just the opposite. People generally don’t try very hard at all to do anything but use a car, with a lot of excuses.
As for that intersection, it is indeed horrible. I think about all of the possible (and most likely fantasy) solutions to the issue daily when entering the neighborhood.
The Grove is served very well by numerous MetroBus lines and the CWE MetroLink station is a short walk to the west end of the commercial district. The QT will displace the excellent Spaghetteria Mamma Mia restaurant.
Bing says it’s 1.2 miles and 23 minutes to walk from the CWE station to the Atomic Cowboy – I’m not sure if that’s truly a “short walk” . . . Spaghetteria Mama Mia moved once before, from Dogtown to this location. I suspect they’ll be able to survive another move, and could likely do better in a better location.
Atomic Cowboy is on the east end. But hey I take the MetroBus that goes right down Manchester. The QT will dramatically alter the corner and not for the better.
QT will destroy some of the last pedestrian scaled buildings in this area making further neighborhood difficult and if/when the area declines, they will just move somewhere else leaving a weed filled abandoned gas station.
QT will destroy some of the last pedestrian scaled buildings in this area making further neighborhood difficult and if/when the area declines, they will just move somewhere else leaving a weed filled abandoned gas station.
I take the bus into the Grove often and have taken Metrolink and walked to the east end of the Grove several times, as my daughter attends the Language Immersion school there. Most people here would agree with you that it isn’t walkable, but I find it to be just the opposite. People generally don’t try very hard at all to do anything but use a car, with a lot of excuses.Â
As for that intersection, it is indeed horrible. I think about all of the possible (and most likely fantasy) solutions to the issue daily when entering the neighborhood.Â
Why weren’t Grove business owners lobbying to prevent the construction of the QT? Â Are they organized on these kinds of issues? Â
Why weren’t Grove business owners lobbying to prevent the construction of the QT? Are they organized on these kinds of issues?