Carondelet Hillside With River Views Being Excaved
Many parts of Carondelet offer spectacular views of rooftops and of the Mississippi river. Unfortunately, we will soon have one less place with views. An entire hillside, nearly virgin land, is being hauled away.
The photo at right is from Minnesota Avenue looking toward the river down Mott Street (map). At left in the picture is the Sisters of St. Joseph of Carondelet – a beautiful hillside collection of buildings. At right in the picture is the site being irrevocably altered.
Since Mott Street has been cut through the hillside both sides have had great views of the river and have towered over Pennsylvania Avenue below. For decades old stone walls have graced the hillsides in this area.
Views from what was left of the hill on Friday June 3rd were spectacular. Sadly, as the hillside is removed so will the views.
Looking toward the southeast the rooftops and river front industry provide an interesting view. Note the building and lot in the lower right of the picture. This is of the same city block. Long ago that part of the hillside was graded away. These properties, admittedly more accessible to the adjacent streets, are also lacking any special views.
The view at left is looking North along Minnesota Avenue toward Mott Street with the Sisters of St. Joseph in the background. Once the hillside is removed as the rest of the block was years ago this site will lose all river views.
The site seen from Pennsylvania Avenue. Slowly this hillside is being moved. I’m told 20 houses are planned for this site. I have no problem with new construction — I think we need a lot more all over the city.
What I have a problem with is wasting great views. We have few in this city.
This view is the bottom of Mott Street at Pennsylvania Avenue. The old Texaco garage can be seen in the background.
All this change is happening without any public input. To my knowledge the city’s planning commission has not approved any site plan for redevelopment.
I can only imagine what it costs to move this amount of dirt. Where is it all going? Couldn’t the developer have constructed an interesting project on the old hillside with balconies taking advantage of the views. Perhaps a loft-style building complete with a roof-top terrace?
I can’t think of any other unbuilt bluff view site within the City of St. Louis. An excellent opportunity is being hauled away one dump truck at a time.
[UPDATE 6/8/05 – 2:15PM: I have a few more details. Apparently this project has been discussed at a few neighborhood meetings so if you happened to be there then you heard about it. However, nothing has been seen in the way of drawings — either of the site plan or houses.
What has been said is that it will not be graded as much as the rest of that city block where you could have houses facing Mott and Pennsylvania. Apparently the developer wants to build a street off Minnesota that the 18-20 houses will face. This will give 3-4 houses on the East end of the site somewhat of a view. Tragically, it will also put backs of houses facing the public streets at Mott and Pennsylvania and garages facing this new internal street.]
– Steve
Just tagging this as your most recent entry in hopes of getting a response. I added something to a thing about creating an arts center, but it was written about 2 months ago and I’m short on time to make sure my new entry is noticed.
I’m traveling to St Louis for a short trip next week and was wondering if you could help with clueing me in on any artsy areas where I might be able to get a cup of coffee and bum around at some unique or cool shops. Also, vegetarian restaurants? Any suggestions are greatly appreciated!
Thanks,
Kris
krisholechek@gmail.com
That really is a shame. The owner is probably selling the dirt for a profit, then selling the land to the homebuyers, that just lost their view because of a greedy developer.
[REPLY – I agree but can’t help wonder if the developer could have actually made more money with a view seeking project on the site? I think the old & familiar hillside could have stayed and the developer could have cleaned up financially. That would have been a win-win. – Steve]
there’s still a whole lot of dirt left on that hillside (drove by it on the way in this AM), and depending on the finished grades, there will still be views.
does anyone know what the actual plans are?
my only source is a SSJ nun who lives next door who said new homes were to be built on the site, but she wasn’t too certain about the development program.
maybe there is an actual grading plan and site plan for a project? grading without a permit is? do they have one? lots of questions for inquiring minds…
meanwhile, there’s a mountain of clean dirt appearing on the north side of River Des Peres at Alabama. maybe that’s where the Minnesota dirt is being moved?
RB
[REPLY – Good questions Rick. This type of change shouldn’t be happening without more information. Here is what I understand – the hillside is being complete graded away so that houses can face Mott and Pennsylvania in addition to Minnesota. I have no idea if an alley is planned (this block has never had an alley). I’m also told the plan is to have “modular” homes which is not necessarily bad. I’m a fan of good factory built housing. I’m afraid we are going to get very ugly suburban housing with front-facing garages. Like you I have more questions than answers but in the meantime the hill is being removed. – Steve]
The Alderman, Matt Villa has not been able to produce drawings of the design at community meetings which to me is a bad sign. I am worried that he is not interested in design integrity, only development. The dirt along the River Des Peres is left over from the Hampton Village Target and will be used to raise Loughborough Commons above the flood plain.
Has the developer of the Minnesota site been invited to a community meeting? He/she could present the drawings, the marketing plan, etc.
It is much better to hear the information from the horses mouth. Then, if there are questions re. the quality of the information provided, there’s no doubt about who’s responsible for it-the developer.
If a would-be developer is unwilling to meet with interested neighbors, well, that’s your first red flag right there.
RB
[REPLY – And the developer is???? No sign is present? I just learned of the project on Friday. It is my understanding the Carondelet Historical Society and CCBF (Carondelet Community Betterment Foundation) were contacted. Apparently neither had any objections – not surprising as they follow the “anything is good” mode of development.
Are we as citizens supposed to contact every developer before they start a project? Are we supposed to know who they are and where they are planning to do bad deeds?
No public notice signs of a planning commission meeting to review a proposed site plan. Perhaps they figured it would be easier to get a plan approved if they delete the hill and old trees. – Steve]
This is starting to sound very typical St. Louis…
The community has an organization that is set up to represent it-CCBF. CCBF has a long track record of community service. CCBF was key in the redevelopment of Steins Row, the Maddox School, and other important projects in Carondelet, including the establishment of the St. Boniface National Register Historic District. If it wasn’t for CCBF, Steins Row would have been demolished, and the National Register Historic District would have never happened.
Presently, a developer looks to do a project in Carondelet, and meets with key community-based organizations there, including CCBF and the Carondelet Historical Society, so he figures he has done his community outreach.
Both CCBF and the historical society have regularly scheduled meetings open to the public. CCBF produces and distributes a regular newsletter and takes memberships.
CCBF has done a lot of good work. Maybe a call to them is in order? 752-6339 I think.
RB
[REPLY – It is highly typical South St. Louis. You’ve got organizations that say they are doing good things for the community and co-op the good work of others. The executives learn of deals ahead of time but do not share those details in public meetings until it is too late – much like Aldermen.
St. Louis and Carondelet would be much better off if CCBF closed its doors. Ditto for the Carondelet Historical Society. Both promote destructive housing policies and bad design. However, both are so powerful and entrenched in the system it is hard for Joe citizen to overcome them.
– Steve]
Not sure why you note a difference between St. Louis and South St. Louis…Organzations like CCBF work in neighborhoods across the city.
Rather than tear them down, wouldn’t it be good to try to make them even better?
Are you saying you’re not happy about Steins Row, Maddox School, Virginia Manor, or the St. Boniface Historic District? Credit CCBF for being involved in getting all of those projects off the ground.
If you disagree with some of their work, work to make them better. Get on the board of its affiliate, the Carondelet Community Housing Corporation, or the parent or CCBF.
Why tear them down? There are a lot of people that have donated many years of service to these organizations. Why not connect their years of service to a progressing vision of a better city, one neighborhood at a time?
The truth is, a group like CCBF has certain credibility and can get a lot of things done, including raising money.
RB
I grew up at Vermont and Mott during the Sixties and lived kitty korner from Mayor Tucker. I shoveled his snow when I was a youngster. What a great person he was, along with his wife Edith (or maybe Elizabeth) Really can’t recall. I’m now living in Chicago and often read anything I can about Carondelet. It’s sad to see the big hill on Mott Street graded. When I was a kid, we called it Clay Hill. I’m not sure. Maybe it’s because everybody thought there was clay in the dirt. I just have a question. Isn’t this the hill where Picot’s castle was during the Civil War? I think it is. When I was little, I remember a very elderly man (must have been ancient) telling me there used to be a castle up the block that was torn down a long time ago. We all thought he was crazy, but sure enough he was right. As an aside, I visited my old neighboorhood a few years ago and visited the Susan Blow kindergarten museum. I was so impressed. When I was younger, I remember going to Cook’s Market with my mom. The neighborhood has changed a lot, but you folks really have a gem of a neighborhood that I really hope you work to preserve. It truly is a treasure!!!! I miss it greatly. Dan Priscu, Cleveland Class of ’78
Dan Priscu is my nephew. Hi Dan I need Ann.s new e mail address as the last time (I heard from her she failed to give me her new address. I also would like your e mail address. Interesting comment on Carandolet. Real estate values in Carandolet have risen tremendously. Most of the city has come back and now with gasoline prices rising every day we expect a new interest in rebuilding the city
Aunt Mary Margaret Walsh
INTERESTING! STIL THERE, MARY? SKYLARKONHIGH@AOL.COM
Hi Aunt Margaret, just discovered your e-mail. I don’t know Ann’s e-mail. We communicate through phone. Mine is danprisc@sbcglobal.net. Hope all is well with you:)))) I’m doing fine here in Chicago – working a lot, which keeps me out of trouble!!! I love reading anything on Carondelet — I think it is going to be an up and coming neighborhood. George still lives in the house on Vermont with his wife Robin. He’s really done a lot with the house. Have you been to the Carondelet Historical Museum on Michigan Avenue? You should visit it, if you get a chance. I’ll bet you’ve already been there. Hope to hear from you soon. I’ll tell everybody I “ran into you” on here. Take care Dan
Hi Dan
Have you discovered facebook yey?????
HI NEPHEW DAN; WE HAVEN'T BEEN IN TOUCH FOR A LONG TIME. I AM IN TOUCH WITH ANN ALMOST WEEKLY.
I HAVEN'T SEEN MOST OF YOU SINCE I STOPPED IN YOUR OLD HOME IN 1970!! MY SON DAN COLI AND I STOPPED IN ON THE WAY TO NEVADA TO VISIT RELATIVES. YOU AND I WERE IN TOUCH YEARS AGO ONLINE, REMEMBER? HOPE ALL IS GOOD WITH YOU, NEPHEW. WARM HUGS, AUNT ELAINE
Hi Dan