Proposed McDonald’s To Be Most Suburban Among Fast Food on Grand
Unfortunately the seven blocks or so along South Grand between Potomac St and Alberta St are littered with fast food establishments, many with drive-thru service. North of this area is quite nice with urban storefronts. South of the area you get a nice urban feeling again with storefronts and homes facing Grand. It is the one section, centered between Gravois & Chippewa, that has been ravaged over the years by inappropriate development.
I decided to take a closer look at the existing drive-thru establishments to see how they compared to the proposed McDonald’s (view site plan). The numbers were startling.
First, only the 1996 White Castle and the proposed McDonald’s have any sort of auto drive separating the public sidewalk from the building. The Taco Bell, KFC, Burger King, Arby’s and existing McDonald’s all have no autos between the sidewalk and building. This places the building closer to the building line and is therefore more accommodating to pedestrians. The proposed McDonald’s will follow the newer White Castle by setting back the building and separating it from the sidewalk with an auto drive, making it less accommodating to pedestrians.
Here are some quick observations:
The Taco Bell has the smallest site. The proposed McDonald’s site is 223% larger than the Taco Bell site! The Taco Bell and KFC sites combined are the same size as the current McDonald’s site. The proposed McDonald’s site is 38% larger than the current McDonald’s site. The site of the proposed McDonald’s is 64% larger than the next biggest site, White Castle. The proposed McDonald’s will have 62% more parking spaces than the current location (29 vs. 47).
The mixed-use project just South of the Grand View Arcade includes a Wing Stop, a Subway a Papa John’s Pizza and a Head Start program. This project includes, for all four business, a total of 42 parking spaces. This is five less than the proposed McDonald’s. Keep in mind the McDonald’s owner is saying this move is necessary to increase his drive-thru business.
The existing McDonald’s location, built in 1974, is the oldest of all the locations. One could argue it is due for replacement but I say it was the one that started the trend of suburban fast food in the area. However, the White Castle that was razed in 1996 may have pre-dated the 1974 McDonald’s.
The proposed McDonald’s is less urban than the current location in that it will be set back from the public sidewalk and will have a lower building to land ratio (10.7% vs. 7.1%). Truly urban development would occupy a minimum of 30-40% of the parcel with buildings.
All signs indicate the proposed McDonald’s is not only out of scale with the idea of a pedestrian friendly neighborhood but also relative to other fast-food drive-thru establishments in the immediate vicinity. Nobody involved has their act together. The city’s zoning is ancient with no guidelines to make drive-thrus more urban. The elected officials, alderwoman and mayor, seem glad to help McDonald’s more than help the area residents work toward a good compromise. The developer, Pyramid, seems convinced they are doing the city a good service. McDonald’s will generally push the standard formula unless they are forced to do something better which brings us back to zoning.
Here is what I’d like to see happen:
An immediate moratorium on new projects on Grand between Potomac & Alberta with the exception of the SSNB & Melba/Grandview Arcade. A community planning workshop to envision the potential of the area. Property owners, neighbors, aldermen, and the city’s planning staff should be involved in the process. Ald. Florida & Ald. Schmid co-sponsor a bill enacting a special zoning overlay for the area. Zoning does not prohibit drive-thru restaurants but it does establish guidelines which mitigates the negative aspects associated with these building types. Drive-thru guidelines might follow this example from Toronto. Moratorium is lifted with everyone now on the same playing field. Developers know if they invest in the area in an urban fashion that others will also be held to similar standards.
Will this happen? Probably not. This would require some leadership and frankly I don’t think Ald. Florida has either the will or ability to do it.
– Steve
Steve-
Your proposal sounds good, but does it need to be Alderman Florida to make the suggestion?
Why not the commercial development committee or full board of the Dutchtown South organization, perhaps as a joint request with the Gravois Park Neighborhood Association?
Or, if you’re looking for a higher profile leader to support the effort, isn’t there someone else in an official capacity who could make the same suggestion?
[REPLY – It doesn’t need to come from Florida but given that the area I describe is fully within the 15th Ward it needs her support. But, I’d love to see the neighborhood associations on both sides of Grand come together and set out some visioning for what Grand should become over the next 5-20 years. – SLP]
After reviewing your table and other posts on this topic, I have to ask: Despite Florida’s statement about this being a pedestrian friendly design, what could McDonalds do to make it less pedestrian friendly? Terminate a highway ramp in the parking lot?
Given that the local neighborhood organizations depend on the alderman for funding, how candid can they be in this discussion?
The South Grand area has been a hotbed for revitalization for years; is this debate getting much discussion outside of this electronic town hall?
And why don’t we see more of this background information in wide print circulation, like in the Suburban Journals?
This location, while fully within the 15th ward, is very close to the 25th ward, the 20th ward, the 9th ward, thee 7th ward, the 6th ward, and the 8th ward. It’s no wonder some people call the intersection of Grand and Gravois the “Crossroads of St. Louis”.
Yet all leadership will defer to Alderman Florida? Someone, please wake me when the 21st century dawns in St. Louis…
[REPLY – Agreed! This area is critical to far more than just the 15th ward. Sadly we have a huge leadership vacuum. – SLP]
It seems that people keep complaining about this project, and yet no action is taking place. How about we get a petition together and do a recall.
We only need 20 percent.
…”provided further, that if the officer shall have been elected by the voters of a ward or district, the petition need be signed by only twenty percent of all the registered voters therein at the time of said mayoralty election”
http://www.slpl.lib.mo.us/cco/charter/data/art03.htm
LetÂ’s stop bitching on blogs and do something. It worked in Ward 24, letÂ’s make it work here.
The comment made by the Chicago resident, basically stating that South Grand is not urban when compared to Chicago, and that St. Louis does not have the political muscle to make strong demands; I can only say that as long as we have this mentality, nothing will get done. If our politicians do not reflect the will of the people, then we need new politicians. If the people want strong action, then the politicians should take strong action. Political power is absolute with the support of the electorate. If our politicians protest McDonalds, and the people back the politicians, then we will get what we want. If we hold our politicians accountable, instead of being complacent, we will get what we want. Lets use the democratic process and hold our aldermen accountable.
The Gravois Park Neighborhood Association did get a petition together for the hearing on the conditional use permit. We gathered over 200 signatures. A good number of people that signed the petition said that if we ever got a petition to just make that McDonald’s go away, that they would sign that one too. Unfortunately, the number of signatures that we gathered never made it into the minutes. The minutes just say that we submitted a petition.
The GPNA did file an appeal to the approval. I don’t think that happens very often since the application for appeal form really didn’t fit. It was meant for the applicant to appeal a denial, not a concerned citizen, group, etc. to appeal an approval. Nevertheless we did it.
Once we get our act together we’re going to have a protest. We’re not for sure where is the best place for the protest. On the proposed lot? Or the current lot, perhaps Alderwoman Florida’s house, or maybe James Proctor’s house (the franchise owner)? Perhaps at the Pyramid office, or City Hall? Any ideas? We will definitely need all the support that we can get.
Are we breaking copyright laws if we make a sign of the Golden Arches with a prohibited symbol over it?
How about a protest at each of the above listed locations.
This is a high priority of St. Louis Urban Progress, a new group that was born out of the posters on UrbanSTL.com. Myself and a few others are spearheading a movement to defeat this design. If anyone here (who does not already belong to UrbanSTL) is interested in joining our efforts, please register over there, as we’ll be planning upcoming meetings to tackle this development head on.
I am in total agreement that the site plan for this new McDonald’s is totally inappropriate for the city, but the fact remains that this entire project is against ordinance and is tax abated.
I fail to see why we are falling over ourselves to suggest the site plan be improved when the plan should be scrapped altogether.
If McDonald’s wishes to stay, let them rebuild on their present lot. The city doesn’t need to provide tax abatement or any assistance to poorly run businesses.
I think the most effective places to protest are at Jennifers House, at the site of the new McDonalds, and downtown at City Hall. City Hall and Jennifers house are essential because they would probably get some news coverage.
[REPLY – In front of Pyramid’s sales office on Washington Ave at 10th might be a good location as well. – SLP]
Jennifer Florida cut her political teeth on grass roots efforts such as C-4, the effort to preserve the South Side National Bank, and the Southtown Coalition.
What happened to the old Jennifer?
We have been wondering that since she was elected…
Personally, I supported Joe Daus, when Jennifer Florida first came to office in a very close race. And I think Joe was much more active in his grassroots work to stop the demolition of SSNB.
Anyway, Florida has won more than once now, and the next odd-wards election is not until 2009. So then, in spite of the City’s spreading recall fever and Florida’s charter amendment at the polls in two weeks, I think folks should definitely seek to work with their elected alderman.
Since it’s really a threat, I think activists would be more constructive in avoiding recall talk. Yet Florida needs to be more constructive as well, for Craig Schmid has certainly witnessed her belligerence.
But it takes two to tango. And as long as an alderman is still communicating with her constituents, then there is still hopefully room for negotiation. Maybe a town hall meeting is in order.
Where is the Planning and Urban Design Agency on the matter?
In the current system, that would be one agency with citywide scope and supposed independence. That agency could ensure that the McDonalds’ plan does not sail through to getting a permit.
Brian said, “And as long as an alderman is still communicating with her constituents, then there is still hopefully room for negotiation.”
How is the alderman communicating with her constituents? Did I miss a post? And for that matter, how far along is this whole transaction?
Jennifer Florida’s opponent in the incredibly close March 2001 primary was MIKE Daus, not his brother Joe (who lives in Southampton I believe).
Mike Daus, of course, was then elected as state representative in August 2001, to fill the 67th district slot vacated by Pat Dougherty when he got named to the 4th Senate district seat in January 2001.
Michael:
I don’t think the Planning Commission has authority over conditional use permits. They only approve permanent zoning map changes.
Conditional use falls under the purview of the Zoning Administrator in the Building Division at City Hall. That’s how (most of) the aldermen like it.
Eric said-
“We gathered over 200 signatures. A good number of people that signed the petition said that if we ever got a petition to just make that McDonald’s go away, that they would sign that one too. Unfortunately, the number of signatures that we gathered never made it into the minutes. The minutes just say that we submitted a petition.”
The minutes also say that a sizable chunk of your signatures were stricken from the petition because they had addresses that were from nowhere near the neighborhood, and many from the COUNTY. So did you just go around asking people to if they are for or against McDonaldÂ’s in general?
The minutes also say something that I have never even heard of before. A volunteer with the Dutchtown South organization got up at the zoning variance meeting not to speak for or against the variance but against the neighborhood association, saying that a small group of people (many of whom I assume are posting here) have hijacked the NA and are generally keeping everyone else in the dark. She also said that some of the board members of Dutchtown South are from St. Louis County. Sounds like you guys are getting ready for a run at City Hall! (Police Commission?)
Or how about the lady who said she represented Dutchtown NORTH neighborhood association. THERE IS NO DUTCHTOWN NORTH NEIGHBORHOOD ASSOCIATION. She was an association of one. If every loon in the city is allowed to call themselves a neighborhood association you can kiss everything you have ever hoped that this City could be goodbye right now.
And if you are going to talk about the meeting minutes you HAVE to talk about Steve’s own contribution, in the interest of both full disclosure and more importantly humor. In summary, Steve speaks against the project more logically than most of the people that got up there, but in an effort to bring himself down to the level of his fellow dissenters, he submitted his testimony based on his expertise as both a website manager and a “real estate broker”. Steve- for future reference leave both of those two..um..professions off your resume. If there are two previously parallel lines of stupidity in the universe you have found the black hole where they intersect. A blogging real estate broker. God help us, somebody call RipleyÂ’s. The people that are going to work at the new McDonalds are more intelligent and more honest than 80% of the people who are working every day as brokers. Add to the fact that you seem to portray yourself as some sort of journalist and you have presented yourself as representing three of the four least credible professions in the USA (President being the fourth).
The point of this isnÂ’t to bash Steve. A lot of the people posting here are being illogical and worse, deceitful. According to the minutes only one person who spoke at the Variance meeting was from the immediate area. IÂ’m guessing most of the people who live in this neighborhood donÂ’t really mind a McDonaldÂ’s there, and are looking forward to the day when they donÂ’t have to sit in that screwy drive through to get their Royale. This is a case of NIMBY, but it apparently is not even your backyard.
So to people like Sam who are thinking of joining the parade against this thing let me say this. There are a lot of very very bad people that are aldermen. Florida is not one of them.
There are a lot of important challenges facing the budding renewal of the city that require a strong grassroots effort to stimulate change. This is not one of them.
Fighting this battle by teaming up with that nut Craig can-I-buy-a-T Schmid and kangaroo neighborhood organizations is going to cost you credibility and if you are very lucky, gain you a vacant lot and another 30 years of McDonaldÂ’s at the corner of Grand and Chippewa.
[REPLY – Wow, the minutes have already been prepared? I wasn’t aware that was done for this case. I’ll have to send off a Sunshine Law request for a copy. But maybe I won’t since I’ve already requested the audio recording which, upon receipt, will be digitized and become a series of podcasts for all to hear.
It would be nice if the dissenters that comment here would try to get their facts straight. For example, Dutchtown North is a small neighborhood association just a block from the proposed McDonald’s site. it is not a “neighborhood” among the city’s 79 but the Dutchtown area is divided up into many smaller neighborhoods.
It is funny that “Dave” doesn’t give much value to my website or my profession as a real estate Broker-Salesperson. Hmmm, yet “he” feels the need to respond. I think those trying to shove the McDonald’s down our throat are feeling a little heat. – SLP]
With regard to Dave’s post:
The minutes don’t say that any signatures were stricken, although the hearing officers questioned some petitioners with out-of-the-area addresses. These petitioners, however, signed the petition while shopping/eating/walking/etc. at or near Grand & Gravois. Whoever Dave is has inside information, as this detail is not in the Feb. 16 minutes.
I believe the general consensus is that, for many reasons, Grand/Winnebago is innapropriate for this use, especially because drive-through restaurants were probhibited by ordinance in the development plan for this Keystone development. If it’s NIMBY, then it was passed as a law by a coalition of adjoining aldermen seven years ago.
Jennifer Florida is contributing to some marvelous developments near Grand & Gravois; the McDonald’s just isn’t one of them. No one said she’s a horrible person; she’s simply out of touch with her constituents and with the development plan when she allies with McDonald’s on this fanciful plan. And she’s unwavering, although she’ll tell anyone who asks that it’s a private land swap that could happen without her support. But she continues to support it despite significant opposition from the residents she is elected to represent.
Craig Schmid [no one cares about how he spells his surname] simply represented the views of people in his ward. Walk around and ask residents if you don’t believe this. You’ll likely find the same thing we did with our petition.
By the way, I’ve forwarded a copy of the minutes to Steve, I’m sure he’ll post them on the site.
Let’s not be confused by the haze….
Private land swap or no, Pyramid’s South Grand elderly housing development requires a massive allocation of federal and state low income housing tax credits awarded by the state of Missouri. Without the tax credits, their is no deal. McDonald’s is a cog in a much larger wheel.
Without the McDonald’s site, their is no elderly housing development. And the total program helps complete the rigormortisized Keystone Project.
Jennifer has a broad array of constituents. Her young urbanists represented here might oppose a drive through McDonald’s on South Grand. That’s one demographic of her diverse ward. What about the other demographics? What about the elderly who get their morning cup of coffee at McDonald’s rather than the Hartford Coffee Company or MoKabees? They would be very happy to have a brand new McDonalds.
Oh, and Alderman Schmid doesn’t need to buy a “T”. The name’s pronounced SchmiD. Not SchmidT.
[REPLY – Why not just build the senior project on the 42,000sf old Sears site rather than the 34,000+ SF current McDonald’s location. – SLP]
And what is the demand for such senior housing? Shouldn’t someone be checking into that, considering Pyramid’s debacle with their other senior housing project?
Maybe the whole plan needs to be reconsidered.
Let’s put the new McDonald’s on the first floor of the nex senior housing complex built on the current site of the existing restaurant.
As John Q pointed out, I would hate to ignore the needs of our elderly residents. I would also hate to see them get run over crossing to the new McDonald’s location.
My problem isn’t rebuilding the McDonald’s. The issue is the violation of ordinances for Keystone Place and providing tax abatement for it! The current restaurant is out-dated, but it’s also disgusting and poorly run, neither of which are the fault of an aging building.
In response to John Q,
Is a plan for the senior housing at the Grand and Chippewa site available? I’d like to see proof that these tax credits have been awarded and that other funding is in place.
Perhaps there is a plan in place, that includes funding, for the senior housing. If so, do we really want to let Pyramid build it? They are the ones that have not yet completed the Keystone Development.
But we seem to be getting off topic. As I’ve stated before, the issue is that the Grand/Winnebago site is innapropriate for this McDonald’s as proposed. Especially because drive-through restaurants were probhibited by ordinance in the plan for the Keystone development. Residents were promised something much greater than what they are getting.
Travis has a great idea for placing the McDonald’s in the ground floor of the elderly housing development. That sounds like a possible win-win.
Steve, I thought the total site for the elderly housing project was much larger than just the McDonald’s.
As far as the status of the tax credits, the source for that information is the Missouri Housing Development Commission, but I don’t think they’ve been approved.
Control over the McDonald’s site is probably a requirement for getting the tax credits.
Travis has a great idea for placing the McDonald’s in the ground floor of the elderly housing development. That sounds like a possible win-win.
Steve, I thought the total site for the elderly housing project was much larger than just the McDonald’s.
As far as the status of the tax credits, the source for that information is the Missouri Housing Development Commission, but I don’t think they’ve been approved.
Control over the McDonald’s site is probably a requirement for getting the tax credits.
While signatures on the petition from outside of the area may be invalid, input of those of us who live elsewhere in the city are pertinent. Zoning enforcement sets precedents that will either help or hurt efforts in other neighborhoods to build healthy, walkable commercial districts. This issue has citywide ramifications.
Also, since state tax credits are involved in Pyramid’s project, anyone who is a Missouri citizen has the right to be involved in this decision. Those tax credits are finite, and Pyramid received them because another applicant did not. It is proper for citizens to scrutinize what impact those tax credits have in their community (they are, of course, supposed to be used for improving communities) and then make sure that that the Missouri Housing Development Commission hears about the results when next year’s tax credits are awarded.
Sorry for the self promoting, but this is important.
You know you saw the Channel 2 News Coverage right? Come to the meeting and support the city!
We are focusing on the Opus project, and the McDonalds project.
Meeting Details
Blog
The Opus Issue (main focus of upcoming meeting)
Article About our 1st Meeting
Read More about the McDonalds Issue (second topic of upcoming meeting)
^ the last post might be the first post from a commenter to provide a link to the host blog.
In the comment section of urbanreviewstl, stlpcsoluctions comments and links to an urbanreviewstl thread. I can’t imagine there a single person reading urbanreviewstl who hasn’t already read the linked thread…
This is either a signal of the pending apocalypse or proof that we’ve reached critical mass (or oversaturated it) for St. Louis “urban themes” blogs.
[REPLY – New readers come every day so we cannot assume that everyone is up to date. Still, it was kinda weird seeing my own post referenced in a comment on my own site. For convenience I’ve added a catagory for the McDonald’s issue — this makes it easy to find all the related posts. – SLP]
Just a question about the non city addresses. Could many of them be landlords that has property in the area of McDonalds and are active and very interested in the neighborhood associations?