Poll: Should Zoo-Museum Institutions Offer Discounts to City & County Residents?
Interesting story in the paper last week:
Property owners in St. Louis and St. Louis County paid more than $70 million last year for the region’s premier arts and culture attractions. But when it comes time to visit institutions funded through the zoo-museum tax district, they’re often treated the same as people who didn’t pay a dime.
Now, a member of the public board that supervises the 40-year-old tax district is asking whether that’s fair.
Gloria Wessels recently suggested that four of the five institutions funded by the zoo-museum district offer discounts on parking, concessions and special exhibits to visitors who live in the taxing district. If necessary, those discounts could be funded through price increases for visitors who live outside the district, she said. (STLToday)
Gloria Wessels is the wife of long 26-year alderman Fred Wessels (D-13). Should those of us who pay taxes to fund these attractions get a little something others don’t? The Missouri Botanical Garden already allows city & county resident in for free on Wednesday & Saturday mornings. Â The article points out the logistical nightmare of trying to verify who would qualify for free parking. Â Besides the last thing we need is to encourage is more cars trying to get to the zoo & museum.
During its thirty-seven years of operation the District’s annual tax revenue has increased from $3.9 million dollars in 1972 to more than $72 million dollars in 2009. In recent years, approximately 85% of the tax revenues come from the County taxpayers while City residents provide 15% of the District’s tax revenues.
The expansion of the number of Subdistricts from three to five is indicative of the success and vitality of the original concept of a tax supported cultural district. Today, the Metropolitan Zoological Park and Museum District is, perhaps, the largest tax supported cultural district in this country. It is a model that other cities have often attempted to emulate. (mzdstl.org)
The five subdistricts are the Saint Louis Art Museum, Saint Louis Zoological Park, Missouri Botanical Garden, Saint Louis Science Center and Missouri History Museum.
The poll this week asks you to weigh in on this issue. The poll is in the upper right of the blog.
– Steve Patterson
As non-residents but former-residents my wife and I return for visits to St Louis on an irregular basis every couple years or so. On every visit we do spend time (and money) in one or more of the tax-supported cultural attractions, and on every trip we do include a visit to the Botanical Garden.
At Botanical Gardens for example, we pay the tarrifs at the entrance without complaint even while recognizing that as non-resident seniors we pay more than twice the admission charged to the resident seniors who preceeded us past the entrance ticket counter.
At $8/each for non-residents, $4 for residents, and $3 for resident seniors and with no parking fees for any visitor, we believe Botanical Gardens has a fair admission price schedule and see no reason the other tax-supported sub districts wouldn’t use a similar admission cost structure.
As non-residents but former-residents my wife and I return for visits to St Louis on an irregular basis every couple years or so. On every visit we do spend time (and money) in one or more of the tax-supported cultural attractions, and on every trip we do include a visit to the Botanical Garden.
At Botanical Gardens for example, we pay the tarrifs at the entrance without complaint even while recognizing that as non-resident seniors we pay more than twice the admission charged to the resident seniors who preceeded us past the entrance ticket counter.
At $8/each for non-residents, $4 for residents, and $3 for resident seniors and with no parking fees for any visitor, we believe Botanical Gardens has a fair admission price schedule and see no reason the other tax-supported sub districts wouldn’t use a similar admission cost structure.
Years ago I was waiting in line at SLAM to see a special exhibit of King Tut artifacts with my wife, her sister (who lives in St. Charles) and a gaggle of kids. Â As we were waiting in line I realized that my sister-in-law, who paid nothing to support the museum was standing ahead of me in line. Â I, half-jokingly, asked the docent if there was an express line for City/county residents. Â Of course there wasn’t.I really think that our fantastic institutions should remain free – especially for city/county residents and visitors from outside the area. Â These institutions are an attractive component in STL’s tourism package. Â Many families from throughout the mid-west and beyond choose STL as a vacation location because of these affordable venues. Â These families stay in STL hotels and eat in STL restaurants while here. Â Additionally, I think its appropriate for us to “show-off” what is great about us… including our willingness to support and invest in our cultural institutions.I do think, however, that who “we” are includes the folks (like my sister-in-law) from St. Charles, Jefferson, St. Clair and Madison counties. Â As such I would strongly support the expansion of the district to include the St. Louisians in these collar counties. Â Imagine what ZMD could do with additional resources. Â We could perhaps develop long-discussed aquarium, or improve funding for the museum of transportation. Â I have always thought of the ZMD sort of as a backyard Bar-b-que. Â We in STL city/county are grilling some bratwursts in our back yard for our family and our out of town guests, but our next-door neighbors (collar counties) crash the party. Â I’d like to invite the next-door neighbors to join the party, just bring a dish.Â
Years ago I was waiting in line at SLAM to see a special exhibit of King Tut artifacts with my wife, her sister (who lives in St. Charles) and a gaggle of kids. As we were waiting in line I realized that my sister-in-law, who paid nothing to support the museum was standing ahead of me in line. I, half-jokingly, asked the docent if there was an express line for City/county residents. Of course there wasn’t.I really think that our fantastic institutions should remain free – especially for city/county residents and visitors from outside the area. These institutions are an attractive component in STL’s tourism package. Many families from throughout the mid-west and beyond choose STL as a vacation location because of these affordable venues. These families stay in STL hotels and eat in STL restaurants while here. Additionally, I think its appropriate for us to “show-off” what is great about us… including our willingness to support and invest in our cultural institutions.I do think, however, that who “we” are includes the folks (like my sister-in-law) from St. Charles, Jefferson, St. Clair and Madison counties. As such I would strongly support the expansion of the district to include the St. Louisians in these collar counties. Imagine what ZMD could do with additional resources. We could perhaps develop long-discussed aquarium, or improve funding for the museum of transportation. I have always thought of the ZMD sort of as a backyard Bar-b-que. We in STL city/county are grilling some bratwursts in our back yard for our family and our out of town guests, but our next-door neighbors (collar counties) crash the party. I’d like to invite the next-door neighbors to join the party, just bring a dish.
Residents should get discounts on memberships. The logistics of pulling out your residency proof will hold up already congested lines.
Residents should get discounts on memberships. The logistics of pulling out your residency proof will hold up already congested lines.
Ideally, the district(s) should be expanded to include the entire metropolitan area, on both sides of the river. Realistically, it ain’t gonna happen anytime soon – why would anyone vote to tax themselves when they currently get a free ride?! The ONLY way to get the outer ‘burbs to participate financially is to hit ’em where it hurts, in their walets. Either give substantial discounts to the taxpayers who are paying the freight now (I wouldn’t mind waiting for mine), or reduce or eliminate the tax subsidy and make all (and only the) users pay at the door.Â
The argument that “free” attracts tourists is a weak one. It costs $100+ per day, per person, to enjoy a day in any of the Orlando theme parks, and they’re doing just fine. What we have here is just another case of corporate welfare (check out what their CEO’s are paid), no different than TIF’s for Wamart. Sure, the institutions will take all the tax money that’s directed to them (who wouldn’t?). The real question is whether or not this kind of narrowly-directed socialism is appropriate, taking from relatively-poor urban residents and giving to realtively-wealthy suburban residents and foreign visitors?  Do the percentages of people of color and lower economic means (represented in the crowds at the art museum or the botanical gardens) mirror the percentages paying the taxes?!
Ideally, the district(s) should be expanded to include the entire metropolitan area, on both sides of the river. Realistically, it ain’t gonna happen anytime soon – why would anyone vote to tax themselves when they currently get a free ride?! The ONLY way to get the outer ‘burbs to participate financially is to hit ’em where it hurts, in their walets. Either give substantial discounts to the taxpayers who are paying the freight now (I wouldn’t mind waiting for mine), or reduce or eliminate the tax subsidy and make all (and only the) users pay at the door.
The argument that “free” attracts tourists is a weak one. It costs $100+ per day, per person, to enjoy a day in any of the Orlando theme parks, and they’re doing just fine. What we have here is just another case of corporate welfare (check out what their CEO’s are paid), no different than TIF’s for Wamart. Sure, the institutions will take all the tax money that’s directed to them (who wouldn’t?). The real question is whether or not this kind of narrowly-directed socialism is appropriate, taking from relatively-poor urban residents and giving to realtively-wealthy suburban residents and foreign visitors? Do the percentages of people of color and lower economic means (represented in the crowds at the art museum or the botanical gardens) mirror the percentages paying the taxes?!
Do the percentages of people of color and lower economic means
(represented in the crowds at the art museum or the botanical gardens)
mirror the percentages paying the taxes?!
Due to property values, County residents pay more than City residents. Should this be taken into account as well?
Sure, why not? But the question remains, the tax money only goes to five institutions, and it’s substantial – the zoo ($20M annually), the art museum ($20M), the history museum ($10M), the science center ($10M) and the botanical garden ($10M). Of the five, 3 are of more general interest (zoo, science center & history museum), while the other 2 are more limited (art museum & botanical gardens), and all depend on it for half their operating costs. And, as the Post-Dispatch identified, “Each of the executive directors of those organizations made between $366,885 and $387,110 in annual base pay”. Personally, I’d like to know how the number break down on attendance at each institution, both annual totals and the number of visitors that come from inside and outside the taxing district. Yes, these are public facilities, but if I had my druthers, I’d rather get a discount at one of our new rec centers, and pay a reasonable ($8-$20) admission cost, if and when I visited any of the five “chosen” institutions.
Expensive CEOs are not necessarily a waste. Talented people will not work for low wages, and intelligent charitable organizations realize that. Of course, it’s entirely possible that we are paying high salaries for low-quality people.
I think it would be good to add other counties into the tax district. Everyone benefits from these cultural resources, and I think it should be expanded to all of our metropolitan area.   Â
I think it would be good to add other counties into the tax district. Everyone benefits from these cultural resources, and I think it should be expanded to all of our metropolitan area.
 That this is an “issue” shows how lacking in judgment both our public officials and “citizens” happen to be. No one argues that are paying to much in taxes; no one even says how much they pay in taxes, for the amount is so small no one knows.
These institutions are not “consumed” by their use, so there is no reason that everyone is no getting more than their money’s worth. In fact, the more people attend, the greater their worth, especially if they were run with a little sense of being a pubic forum.
Those who want discounts need to just go to the Art Museum one more day a year and they have recouped any possible unfairness.
That this is an “issue” shows how lacking in judgment both our public officials and “citizens” happen to be. No one argues that are paying to much in taxes; no one even says how much they pay in taxes, for the amount is so small no one knows.
These institutions are not “consumed” by their use, so there is no reason that everyone is no getting more than their money’s worth. In fact, the more people attend, the greater their worth, especially if they were run with a little sense of being a pubic forum.
Those who want discounts need to just go to the Art Museum one more day a year and they have recouped any possible unfairness.
. . . Assuming one prefers going “to the Art Museum one more day a year” over, say, continuing to receive free trash collection . . . whether taxes and fees are directed to specific purposes or are part of the general budget, they, in total, make up one’s total tax burden. YOU may argue that you’re not paying too much in taxes, but many other “citizens” certainly will! The only people “lacking in judgement” are the ones who won’t hold any public institution acountable for the funds they receive!
Do the percentages of people of color and lower economic means
(represented in the crowds at the art museum or the botanical gardens)
mirror the percentages paying the taxes?!
Due to property values, County residents pay more than City residents. Should this be taken into account as well?
The idea of taxes and fees seem to be immovable. Where does the money come from? As several posters have pointed out is the positive cash flow from visitors is significant. While it may be useful to add several counties to the zoo-museum district, there is not a complete understanding of the value of free.
A family that is poor can in fact visit the zoo with no cost. However the most likely scenario is that money is spent by visitors.
I personally cannot support any district taxes that turn into entry fees. Hell with them, if a family comes from out of town and cannot afford one of their overpriced hamburgers, so be it. Let them enjoy themselves.Â
The lust for money obscures reasonable thought. When all of life is turned into financial transactions, the meaning of America is lost.
If changes to the zoo-museum district need to be made, lets see the financial detail. That is what is lacking. Otherwise free parking or discounts for district residents are a discussion without substance.
I will point out as a city resident I park in free spots, a longer walk to the zoo to be sure, and do just fine with my daughter. The taxpayer discount it just that-the ability to park further away.
How about we erect a wall around the city and charge a 10 dollar entry fee to anyone who dares enters our borders? We can hire Blackwater and Eric Prince to kill anyone who violates the law. That should make the city a lot of money and garner the support of republicans besides.
Â
The idea of taxes and fees seem to be immovable. Where does the money come from? As several posters have pointed out is the positive cash flow from visitors is significant. While it may be useful to add several counties to the zoo-museum district, there is not a complete understanding of the value of free.
A family that is poor can in fact visit the zoo with no cost. However the most likely scenario is that money is spent by visitors.
I personally cannot support any district taxes that turn into entry fees. Hell with them, if a family comes from out of town and cannot afford one of their overpriced hamburgers, so be it. Let them enjoy themselves.
The lust for money obscures reasonable thought. When all of life is turned into financial transactions, the meaning of America is lost.
If changes to the zoo-museum district need to be made, lets see the financial detail. That is what is lacking. Otherwise free parking or discounts for district residents are a discussion without substance.
I will point out as a city resident I park in free spots, a longer walk to the zoo to be sure, and do just fine with my daughter. The taxpayer discount it just that-the ability to park further away.
How about we erect a wall around the city and charge a 10 dollar entry fee to anyone who dares enters our borders? We can hire Blackwater and Eric Prince to kill anyone who violates the law. That should make the city a lot of money and garner the support of republicans besides.
Sure, why not? But the question remains, the tax money only goes to five institutions, and it’s substantial – the zoo ($20M annually), the art museum ($20M), the history museum ($10M), the science center ($10M) and the botanical garden ($10M). Of the five, 3 are of more general interest (zoo, science center & history museum), while the other 2 are more limited (art museum & botanical gardens), and all depend on it for half their operating costs. And, as the Post-Dispatch identified, “Each of the executive directors of those organizations made between $366,885 and $387,110 in annual base pay”. Personally, I’d like to know how the number break down on attendance at each institution, both annual totals and the number of visitors that come from inside and outside the taxing district. Yes, these are public facilities, but if I had my druthers, I’d rather get a discount at one of our new rec centers, and pay a reasonable ($8-$20) admission cost, if and when I visited any of the five “chosen” institutions.
. . . Assuming one prefers going “to the Art Museum one more day a year” over, say, continuing to receive free trash collection . . . whether taxes and fees are directed to specific purposes or are part of the general budget, they, in total, make up one’s total tax burden. YOU may argue that you’re not paying too much in taxes, but many other “citizens” certainly will! The only people “lacking in judgement” are the ones who won’t hold any public institution acountable for the funds they receive!
 Expensive CEOs are not necessarily a waste. Talented people will not work for low wages, and intelligent charitable organizations realize that. Of course, it’s entirely possible that we are paying high salaries for low-quality people.
Yes and those St Louis area residents outside should pay. Tourists should always be free.
Yes and those St Louis area residents outside should pay. Tourists should always be free.
Define “tourist”. And where else do you go in the country where tourists get a free ride, while locals have to pay?! If I go to St. Gen., I consider myself to be a tourist . . .
Define “tourist”. And where else do you go in the country where tourists get a free ride, while locals have to pay?! If I go to St. Gen., I consider myself to be a tourist . . .
Brian Wahby hit the nose on the head. Imagine what the district can do when the collar comm. come to the party! And to the comment about people of color and lower economic means? WT_? Do I have to dress in a suit and tie to be considered having the economic means? What racist crap.
For way TOO LONG the city and county which took the foresight to tax themselves for the better of the community as a whole has been footing the bill…not for the tourist….that is our gift for visiting our city….but for those that have left the area (for new bigger house, lower crime, better neighbors, etc) pay your fair share or build your own zoo, museum, etc.  To quote Palin to those in the collar: How’s that working out for you?Â
Brian Wahby hit the nose on the head. Imagine what the district can do when the collar comm. come to the party! And to the comment about people of color and lower economic means? WT_? Do I have to dress in a suit and tie to be considered having the economic means? What racist crap.
For way TOO LONG the city and county which took the foresight to tax themselves for the better of the community as a whole has been footing the bill…not for the tourist….that is our gift for visiting our city….but for those that have left the area (for new bigger house, lower crime, better neighbors, etc) pay your fair share or build your own zoo, museum, etc. To quote Palin to those in the collar: How’s that working out for you?
I think the current zoo system is fine. If you drive to the zoo and park in the zoo lot, you essentially pay an entrace fee. If you walk or bicycle there or take the bus, getting in the zoo is, of course, free. If you assume only lower income people don’t park in the zoo lot, then this is one way to give a break to lower income people – and shouldn’t we do that? On the other hand, if people can afford a car and choose instead to get there by bus or bicycle or walking, then those people have saved the zoo the very real cost of the parking place, and they deserve a financial break too.
So, I’d like to stay with charging only for parking. I would have no problem with giving zoo district property tax payers a slight discount on parking.
I think the current zoo system is fine. If you drive to the zoo and park in the zoo lot, you essentially pay an entrace fee. If you walk or bicycle there or take the bus, getting in the zoo is, of course, free. If you assume only lower income people don’t park in the zoo lot, then this is one way to give a break to lower income people – and shouldn’t we do that? On the other hand, if people can afford a car and choose instead to get there by bus or bicycle or walking, then those people have saved the zoo the very real cost of the parking place, and they deserve a financial break too.
So, I’d like to stay with charging only for parking. I would have no problem with giving zoo district property tax payers a slight discount on parking.