St. Charles County Needs Public Transit
St. Charles County now has more people than the City of St. Louis (360,484 vs 319,294). Â That population is spread out over a much larger area giving the county a low population density of 643/sq mi compared to St. Louis City which has a density of 5,158/sq mi. Â St. Louis County’s population density is 1,966/sq mi. Â One might conclude from these numbers that St. Charles County lacks the density to support transit.
In Illinois, St. Clair County contracts with Metro for transit service despite having a population density of only 393/sq mi (270,056). In addition to bus service, they funded and built an extension to the MetroLink light rail line. Â In neighboring Madison County, the population density is a mere 366/sq mi yet they have the separate Madison County Transit (MTC MCT) system.
Again, St. Charles County has no county-wide transit service. Â The City of St. Charles operates the horribly named SCAT (St. Charles Area Transit)Â system but that is little more than a senior shuttle service.
The St. Charles Area Transit system, otherwise known as SCAT, consists of five bus routes that provide transportation to various locations within the City of St. Charles as well as to the Metrolink North Hanley Station. Curb-to-curb service is provided for all riders, and all busses are equipped with wheelchair lifts.
All routes run Monday through Friday. Please allow 5-10 minutes leeway for each time listed. The routes and schedules are subject to change.
I have a copy of the fold out paper map showing the routes, none are online (wtf?). Yes, seniors need such systems but what about others? What about the other 294,691 St. Charles County residents that don’t live in the City of St. Charles?
In terms of its growth spurt, St. Charles may still be in its tweens.
“We’re probably kind of in the middle,” Anthony [director of community development with St. Charles County]Â says. The county estimates that its maximum capacity is about 640,000 people, he says, considerably more than the county’s current population of 360,484.)
With much more growth ahead, the county and cities within it have several things to consider moving forward, chiefly the very things that brought people out in the first place. (STL Beacon)
More growth with no plan to get folks from home in Wenzville to work in O’Fallon? Â Part of me would like to just sit back and wait for the realities of an aging population combined with rising fuel prices to sink in to the average St. Charles County resident. But by the time that happens they will be in crisis mode. As part of our 16 county region we can’t allow such a large area fall into transportation crisis.
I’m not the first to realize St. Charles County needs a system. They created the St. Charles County Transit Authority and East-West Gateway studied the idea in 2006-07, an update to a 2001 plan.
East-West Gateway suggested that a sales-tax of 1/8 cent (or less) could support the proposed system which would, in turn, provide the local workforce with a transit option that is financially and environmentally friendly.
Polling commissioned by the Transit Authority in January 2008 and paid for by private donations did not indicate sufficient support for a sales tax for public transit. Voters opposed a bus sales tax for two main reasons:
- taxes are already “too high†or
- this particular tax would be an “unwise†use of taxes.
In addition, a large group (20%) stated they would not use the bus system or would not access it because its proposed routing is not convenient for them. (source)
Leaders in St. Charles County need to work on passing a transit tax so the Transit Authority can begin the work of setting up a transit system.
– Steve Patterson
I live in St Charles and while I usually find most of the articles you write very insightful, I wonder from reading this WHY St Charles needs transit? Just because if it’s population? The demographic and business layout of St Charles is radically different than St Louis. I have never really seen a reason to raise our already very high taxes to provide a service no ones ones for a purpose no one seems to be able to define. As in is, SCAT (I agree, what a horrible name) has trouble maintaining numbers. With services like this and the equally poorly named “Family Arena” losing money hand over fist, St Charles should be looking at ways to lose these money losing entities and tightening their belt.
I live in St Charles and while I usually find most of the articles you write very insightful, I wonder from reading this WHY St Charles needs transit? Just because if it’s population? The demographic and business layout of St Charles is radically different than St Louis. I have never really seen a reason to raise our already very high taxes to provide a service no ones ones for a purpose no one seems to be able to define. As in is, SCAT (I agree, what a horrible name) has trouble maintaining numbers. With services like this and the equally poorly named “Family Arena” losing money hand over fist, St Charles should be looking at ways to lose these money losing entities and tightening their belt.
There are people in St. Charles County that would take a bus to the store, to work, to lunch, etc. Seniors & disabled especially.
These areas were not physically designed for transit. It would be better to connect them to Metrolink than to attempt a St. Charles County transportation system. Ridership would never be large enough to support anything similar to Metro. St. Charles residents moved there because they like cars.
Codeboi, agree a lot with Douglas Duckworth’s reply and I also agree that tax dollars as of late seem to go to another arena or strictly cash payouts/entitlements, etc.. We can find better uses. The one thing that I don’t agree with is the perception that taxes are sky high in this country. Our country as a whole now have effective tax rates that haven’t been this low seen since the fifties, over five decades ago!!! It is also a fact that the percentage of gpd we spend on infrastructure is less then half then when the Interstate was first built in St. Charles County. Once again agree that a build out of transit won’t be desired in St. Charles but at some point you have to maintain everything else that is starting to crumbling.
Already very high taxes? Really, how high? And if the taxes are so high where you live, why do you continue to live there?
Think of what taxes and development costs would be if roads and infrastructure were not so heavily subsidized. We all pay for sprawl, whether we live in it or not.
Because its where I can get a job for my Civil Engineering/Construction Management Career. If you look at the St. Louis Regions growth as a whole in any measurable means it has been below the national average for years – GDP, population, income. Heck, Missouri lost a congressional seat where as Iowa, KS, and Arkansas didn’t if that doesn’t tell you something..
My experience is that of owning homes to date in four distinct states – Rural Minnesota, West Chicago Suburb, St. Louis County and now Bay Area of California as well as working through out the continental United States/Maritimes in Canada and Alaska. Yes California is too high just as is Chicago, but was also my best career opportunity.
Yes, Minnesota has higher income, gas and sin taxes but just as reasonable property taxes as St Louis does. Overall in my experience, Minnesota was definitely lower then Chicago and Bay Area even though higher then St Louis. Now compare cities – Twin Cities does better then STL or KC economically, still has an airport hub as well as an airport that isn’t outdated (Minneapolis, Midway, Detriot, Indy, Denver to name a few of relatively new or rebuilt terminals), an expanding light rail/transit service, I believe the schools rate better overall and people on generally healthier (maybe it has to do with the fact that Twin Cities is building an ever expanding trail/greeway network).
My point is not to knock down St. Louis, but emphasizing that being the lowest cost and lowest tax state is not helping Missouri economically as much as people want to believe nor is it attracting jobs. At the end of the day, businesses still need infrastructure to move people and goods and above else an educated workforce.
My reply was somewhat facetious, with a dash of sarcasm for taste. This fella is just one of those misguided folks who think taxes as they stand now are unfair, or who doesn’t realize where his dollars go to, or what services of which he isn’t even aware actually come from his tax dollars at the local, state and federal level. Of course, he may want to know that a significant portion of his federal tax dollars–no one really knows for certain, because it’s classified–in the multi-BillionsUSD range–and I mean multi: as in hundreds of BillionsUSD, ANNUALLY–go to the CIA, NSA, the various black works sites (think B2 bomber, with development costs estimated to be in the 20-35 BillionUSD range, and 2 BillionUSD apiece), and high-tech military R&D. But you don’t hear him complain about that, even though there is no accountability, and the waste and fraud would probably give him a heart attack. I just think it’s funny–ok, it’s kind of a tragedy–that most people don’t even know how their government runs, and how it’s paid for, and what happens when corporate supranationals don’t pay taxes, and the financial sector bilks the US out of TrillionsUSD to bail them out of a problem the financial sector themselves caused. Not to mention the two failed endeavors in Iraq and Afghanistan (at about One BillionUSD currently, probably higher, per week; that doesn’t include medical aftercare) and the ones we don’t even know about. Everyone bitches about Medicare and Social Security (insurance we paid for out of our taxes), but the “defense” contractors and the financial system, ie., Wall St., are bleeding us dry. Meh. I think I’ll have better luck smashing my head against my brick walls in an effort to convince them they are a frame house than I will getting my fellow Americans to see who are actually the real enemies of this country.
As for St. Chuck, I’m not really concerned about them, as they don’t seem to be very concerned about themselves, vis-a-vis recognizing that the services they take for granted will disappear if douchebags like Todd Akin, et al, get their way locally, statewide, and Nationally. See you on the soup lines, folks.
I am dying to hear your side by side comparison of impressions/experiences of quality of life/sense of community between STL and SF/Bay Area. Disclaimer: I am a product of 25+ years living in the Bay Area, having chosen STL 2X over NorCal.
Good point. Bringing transit to STC would only benefit those who don’t live in STC. The thing is, STC probably doesn’t want to bring in people who use public transportation. STC is very easily swayed on the issue when crime is used. One cannot pretend that bringing Metro has devalued some areas. I’ve seen someone get beaten to a bloody pulp at one station. Even though I will continue supporting Metro because I do use it, I can’t really blame STC’s attitude towards it.
If the demand for it was truly there in the first place, they would have voted for it.
I think it would be nice to see commuter service to downtown, but I’m not sure how that would look other than a few large commuter lots in various St. Charles County locations and then a straight shot to downtown. I don’t see a lot of people in St. Charles County being interested in riding local routes.
Also, if people moved to St. Charles County knowing there wasn’t any public transit to speak of, can’t we assume they made their bed willing to lay in it, despite rising gas prices and infrastructure costs? Why should St. Charles be cajoled into transit if they don’t want it? People who decide it’s too much cost can always move back to where there is transit service.
I think it would be nice to see commuter service to downtown, but I’m not sure how that would look other than a few large commuter lots in various St. Charles County locations and then a straight shot to downtown. I don’t see a lot of people in St. Charles County being interested in riding local routes.
Also, if people moved to St. Charles County knowing there wasn’t any public transit to speak of, can’t we assume they made their bed willing to lay in it, despite rising gas prices and infrastructure costs? Why should St. Charles be cajoled into transit if they don’t want it? People who decide it’s too much cost can always move back to where there is transit service.
Just like the slogan last year, “Transit: some of us ride it, all of us need it” or something like that. There might be someone living in Hazelwood that wants a job in St. Peters, or vice versa, but without transit they can’t take that job. It is embarrassing that St. Charles County lacks public transit.
If an area is not built for transit, it is foolish to waste tax dollars on it. If someone can’t get a job because of their lack of transportation options, the so be it. That is a part of life. I can’t get a job in Carbondale because gas and time are prohibitive. Commuting by bus from Hazelwood to St. Peters is time prohibitive and a spectacular waste of public money unless the buses are fairly full.
Plus, most St. Charles residents moved there knowing that the entire county is auto-centric. They don’t want public transit, or in many folk’s opinion, the lower-class people that ride it. If they don’t want it by a wide margin and the county isn’t built for it, why waste the capital to build it against the will of the people?
What about the person who lives and works within St. Charles County that simply would like the option of not having to drive everywhere?
Then voters and their respective governments have to weigh the benefits vs. costs. Is it worth it to invest in a transit system for the given number of riders? I suspect that with St. Charles County, it will never be worth it, as ridership will always be extremely low for various well-known factors. The total cost could be greater than the total benefit.
And philosophically (less importantly though), if St. Charles Co residents don’t want transit or riders coming in from adjacent areas, then why should it be forced on them?
There are people in St. Charles County that would take a bus to the store, to work, to lunch, etc. Seniors & disabled especially.
Just like the slogan last year, “Transit: some of us ride it, all of us need it” or something like that. There might be someone living in Hazelwood that wants a job in St. Peters, or vice versa, but without transit they can’t take that job. It is embarrassing that St. Charles County lacks public transit.
If an area is not built for transit, it is foolish to waste tax dollars on it. If someone can’t get a job because of their lack of transportation options, the so be it. That is a part of life. I can’t get a job in Carbondale because gas and time are prohibitive. Commuting by bus from Hazelwood to St. Peters is time prohibitive and a spectacular waste of public money unless the buses are fairly full.Â
Plus, most St. Charles residents moved there knowing that the entire county is auto-centric. They don’t want public transit, or in many folk’s opinion, the lower-class people that ride it. If they don’t want it by a wide margin and the county isn’t built for it, why waste the capital to build it against the will of the people?Â
What about the person who lives and works within St. Charles County that simply would like the option of not having to drive everywhere?
Then voters and their respective governments have to weigh the benefits vs. costs. Is it worth it to invest in a transit system for the given number of riders? I suspect that with St. Charles County, it will never be worth it, as ridership will always be extremely low for various well-known factors. The total cost could be greater than the total benefit.
And philosophically (less importantly though), if St. Charles Co residents don’t want transit or riders coming in from adjacent areas, then why should it be forced on them?
While I support transit here in the city my opinion on this differs.  St. Charles is a suburban area (primarily) full of new housing developments focused on the automobile lifestyle…someone who lives there has made a choice in favor of long commutes (assuming they work in the city) and knew full well that transit wasn’t an option when they located there and likely wouldn’t be interested in paying for it.  If transit is your thing then living in St. Charles isn’t.
While I support transit here in the city my opinion on this differs. St. Charles is a suburban area (primarily) full of new housing developments focused on the automobile lifestyle…someone who lives there has made a choice in favor of long commutes (assuming they work in the city) and knew full well that transit wasn’t an option when they located there and likely wouldn’t be interested in paying for it. If transit is your thing then living in St. Charles isn’t.
St. Charles County should have more transit and St. Louis City should have less crime and better public schools. Both apparently cost more than most voters are willing to pay for and/or politicians are willing to make a priority (giving more than just lip service). So my response to your hypothetical person who “simply would like the option of not having to drive everywhere?” would be simple – move! Besides being non-dense, the bulk of St. Chuck’s retail, jobs, churches, schools and community centers, aren’t very pedestrian-friendly, either.
There are three main groups of transit riders, the truly transit-dependent, daily commuters and the occasional user. Your view is apparently that there are many more transit-dependent riders out there in St. Charles County just waiting for more and better service. Is that based on hard research or just gut instincts? And how do Madison and St. Clair counties’ use break down, in comparison? Are they primarily commuter systems, or do they provide significant service to transit-dependent riders? My take is that much of their service feeds commuters into downtown St. Louis, much like Metro does on this side of the river.
My experience is that three things drive daily commuters to public transit – they’re tired of being stuck in rush-hour congestion, they have an easier (and not much longer, timewise) trip, door-to-door, and they save money. The real challenge in suburban areas is that both origins and destinations are more diffused and much less dense, making it difficult to assemble a busload of riders. In Denver, the focus has been on investing in park-and-rides, to create virtual density, and on building dedicated transit paths, bus lanes and light rail, that provide quicker service than the freeway alternatives. Here, the focus, especially in St. Charles County, seems to be exclusively on freeways. Until that changes, transit will likely remain either a dream or just a skeletal system.
St. Charles County should have more transit and St. Louis City should have less crime and better public schools. Both apparently cost more than most voters are willing to pay for and/or politicians are willing to make a priority (giving more than just lip service). So my response to your hypothetical person who “simply would like the option of not having to drive everywhere?” would be simple – move! Besides being non-dense, the bulk of St. Chuck’s retail, jobs, churches, schools and community centers, aren’t very pedestrian-friendly, either.
There are three main groups of transit riders, the truly transit-dependent, daily commuters and the occasional user. Your view is apparently that there are many more transit-dependent riders out there in St. Charles County just waiting for more and better service. Is that based on hard research or just gut instincts? And how do Madison and St. Clair counties’ use break down, in comparison? Are they primarily commuter systems, or do they provide significant service to transit-dependent riders? My take is that much of their service feeds commuters into downtown St. Louis, much like Metro does on this side of the river.
My experience is that three things drive daily commuters to public transit – they’re tired of being stuck in rush-hour congestion, they have an easier (and not much longer, timewise) trip, door-to-door, and they save money. The real challenge in suburban areas is that both origins and destinations are more diffused and much less dense, making it difficult to assemble a busload of riders. In Denver, the focus has been on investing in park-and-rides, to create virtual density, and on building dedicated transit paths, bus lanes and light rail, that provide quicker service than the freeway alternatives. Here, the focus, especially in St. Charles County, seems to be exclusively on freeways. Until that changes, transit will likely remain either a dream or just a skeletal system.
Metro used to operate a #134 St. Charles Limited from Mid-Rivers Park-Ride lot across from the QuikTrip in St. Peters, to North Hanley MetroLink. That route was discontinued during one of the rounds of service cuts. More recently, the #40x I-55 Express did for a few years serve the Richardson Road Park-Ride lot in Arnold, but has since been curtailed to end in St. Louis County; likewise the Eureka Express did go out to Pacific (in Franklin County) for awhile. So it’s not like there’s no precedent for express service along those corridors.
Meanwhile, both MCT and St. Clair County Transit service significant transit dependent populations. For MCT, they are primarily residents of the Riverbend (Alton, East Alton, Wood River, etc.) traveling between points within that community; and similarly residents of the Tri-Cities (Granite City, Venice and Madison) traveling between points within that community. The express service into downtown St. Louis is what most of us who live over here see, but more of their operations are within those suburban small towns.
For St. Clair County, there’s clearly a huge transit-dependent population in and around East St. Louis. Once you get east of Bluff Road and away from Belleville and Fairview Heights, bus service is pretty sparse.
Thanks for the info.
I am not convinced that people moved to St. Charles because they wanted the auto-centric lifestyle. Maybe they just moved into the area knowing nothing about the benefits of transit and following advice of other people who also know nothing about transit’s benefits. People catch onto things when given the chance. I doubt people move to St. Charles because they want to drive everywhere. It probably does not cross their minds that Americans could have other options – or even that driving everywhere has drawbacks. I, personally, used to take it for granted that no one would ever want to do anything but drive.
I am not convinced that people moved to St. Charles because they wanted the auto-centric lifestyle. Maybe they just moved into the area knowing nothing about the benefits of transit and following advice of other people who also know nothing about transit’s benefits. People catch onto things when given the chance. I doubt people move to St. Charles because they want to drive everywhere. It probably does not cross their minds that Americans could have other options – or even that driving everywhere has drawbacks. I, personally, used to take it for granted that no one would ever want to do anything but drive.
I completely agree. I think many of these comments reflect the opinions of those living in St. Charles county or similar areas. One must consider other things… and other people. Many did not choose to live in these areas because they wanted an auto-centric lifestyle. Maybe it was where they found a job. Maybe it is close to family. Maybe that is where they could find what they needed. Knowing that, why should they not receive the possible benefits of transportation. Just because YOU don’t think transportation is needed doesn’t mean it should not be considered.
I agree that many residents, everywhere, make both informed and uninformed choices. The question that follows, then, is what role should government play to “inform” them? Government reflects the people that elect them. Government imposes taxes and provides services, and there is never enough of either one, leaving the proverbial hard choices / popular choices. In newer, sprawling, suburban areas, good schools, soccer fields and wider roads tend to trump public transit and services for the poor and the homeless. Most residents tend to be younger and more mobile, so their choices are logical to them. And, for better or worse, life is full of choices – where to live, where to work, where to shop, where to send kids to school and how to get around. So, while I’m definitely pro transit, I’m also very well aware how hard it would be to implement it in St. Charles County, given its current land use patterns, low densities, expanding highway network and obvious lack of political will. And I’m not saying that no one should try, I’m saying it’s going to be an uphill battle, and one where it makes more sense to expend potentially-fruitful efforts on this side of the Missouri River, leaving the west side for more propitious times.
I live in STL County, have used Metro for a large part of my lifestyle and recently had to get a car because the so called “benefits” turned out to be a hoax created by PT advocates who are disconnected from the rest of society.
Believe me, those who live in STC don’t want Metro there. They know the so called benefits and they know that the disadvantages far outweigh them.
I completely agree. I think many of these comments reflect the opinions of those living in St. Charles county or similar areas. One must consider other things… and other people. Many did not choose to live in these areas because they wanted an auto-centric lifestyle. Maybe it was where they found a job. Maybe it is close to family. Maybe that is where they could find what they needed. Knowing that, why should they not receive the possible benefits of transportation. Just because YOU don’t think transportation is needed doesn’t mean it should not be considered.
These areas were not physically designed for transit. Â It would be better to connect them to Metrolink than to attempt a St. Charles County transportation system. Â Ridership would never be large enough to support anything similar to Metro. Â St. Charles residents moved there because they like cars. Â
I agree that many residents, everywhere, make both informed and uninformed choices. The question that follows, then, is what role should government play to “inform” them? Government reflects the people that elect them. Government imposes taxes and provides services, and there is never enough of either one, leaving the proverbial hard choices / popular choices. In newer, sprawling, suburban areas, good schools, soccer fields and wider roads tend to trump public transit and services for the poor and the homeless. Most residents tend to be younger and more mobile, so their choices are logical to them. And, for better or worse, life is full of choices – where to live, where to work, where to shop, where to send kids to school and how to get around. So, while I’m definitely pro transit, I’m also very well aware how hard it would be to implement it in St. Charles County, given its current land use patterns, low densities, expanding highway network and obvious lack of political will. And I’m not saying that no one should try, I’m saying it’s going to be an uphill battle, and one where it makes more sense to expend potentially-fruitful efforts on this side of the Missouri River, leaving the west side for more propitious times.
Metrolink should’ve extended itself to Riverport Amphitheater (a.k.a. Verizon Wireless Amphitheater), Harrah’s, and Ameristar Casino as starting points for this potential transition to public transit in St. Charles. I know the people of St. Charles voted the Metrolink expansion down, but that was over 14 years ago, and I believe it would pass now.
Metrolink should’ve extended itself to Riverport Amphitheater (a.k.a. Verizon Wireless Amphitheater), Harrah’s, and Ameristar Casino as starting points for this potential transition to public transit in St. Charles. I know the people of St. Charles voted the Metrolink expansion down, but that was over 14 years ago, and I believe it would pass now.
St. Clair County funded their MetroLink extension but it made sense since they had a bus transit system to connect to. St. Charles needs to get their intra-county bus system running as the first step to connecting with the region at large.
Chicken or egg argument – if Metrolink is extended to the county line, what incentive would there then be to raise county taxes to push it (further?) into St. Charles County? The folks in St. Charles already get a free ride on the zoo; what makes you think they’ll vote to fund transit? (The most logical transit scenario for St. Charles County are park-and-rides served by commuter bus routes and, potentially, Metrolink. Sure, it would be more convenient if the park-and rides are on the west side of the Missouri River, but having one or more at Harrah’s/Riverport and/or Ameristar would be nearly as convenient.) And, as someone who has paid transit taxes for years, my first priority is to look for ways to maximize transit services for other taxpayers who live within the current service boundaries, not find ways to make them more attractive to freeloaders!
Actually, I believe half of Prop A went to expanding Metrolink. So the county residents already put support behind metrolink expansion
In this context, I think extending west of Lambert to Riverport/Earth City Expressway as Red Medicine suggested is not that bad of an idea. Why? Because it will connect metrolink with another employment center in Earth City within St. Louis county and City as well as two entertainment venues. Build in a bus loop circular to/from station that also stops at the Creve Creour lake boathouse. The line would above grade and could essentially be built mostly on Lambert property and MoDOT ROW via a design build contract.
If St. Charles ever desire a fixed transit system to the airport its a very short distance across the river.
Second alternative, extend Cross County Line to I-55 via River Des Peres greenway. It will maximize the existing line and provide an alternative transport mode to Clayton downtown district that essentially runs through existing right of way. Incorporate the South County road connector/new Shrewsbury I-44 Interchange being planned, connect the Deer Creek & River Des Peres Greenway Trails and rebuild River Des Peres Blvd as they did with Forest Parkway to make it a multimodal infrastructure project for the south county/city.
Either case, both extensions build upon existing transit, minimize lead time and property acquistion versus the thought of building the new Daniel Boone Line.
As a person raised in St. Peters in the 80’s & 90’s, who now proudly lives in SW city I can largely speak on experience. Metrolink is more appealing to county people, buses are often confusing and perceived differently (dirty, unsafe) to a majority of county residents. Riverport, Harrah’s, and Ameristar already have a massive abundance of parking and could immediately support a park & ride infrastructure. I do not believe Prop A has anything do with expanding Metrolink into St. Charles because the previous ballot that was insanely (my opinion) voted down in the 90’s over-rides any funding for Metrolink expansion to St. Charles. Correct me if I’m wrong. Either way, I think a bus network in St. Charles would be very challenging, and Metrolink would be a wise first step. I’d be happy to see both, but I think one is easier than the other.
T & Red – I fully support expanding service, including Metrolink, within the areas that are supporting Metro financially. The nuance I was trying to make was I do not support extending Metrolink out to the service boundaries in hopes of capturing more riders from outside the service area. Much like the federal budget, we need to take care of “our people” first, before we go around fixing problems everywhere else.
As for using the parking at Harrah’s, Ameristar and Verizon for transit park-and-rides, that’s probably a non-starter. They’re all privately-owned facilities, built to serve their specific business needs. Yes, they’re underused on many “working days”, but there are times when they are fully utilized and transit users would not be welcomed, and probably prohibited. While I support the concept of shared parking, it has to work for all involved. Unfortunately, transit parking is like every other kind – it needs to be provided by Metro for its users, to guarantee that it will always available.
The quickest way to discourage transit use by choice riders is to make it unreliable – cancelled or broken buses, unsafe trains, infrequent parking, taking away expected parking. Predictability is actually more important than cost savings to daily commuters. And providing transit parking in suburban areas actually makes perverse sense. That “last mile”, to a patron’s front door, is always the biggest challenge, in both urban and suburban areas. People will only walk so far, so transit systems need to balance where buses are routed and when they run against the number of riders they (will) attract. Urban density makes the equation easier, while getting suburban riders to drive a few miles to central collection points creates virtual density. It boils down to does it make more sense to make a one-time investment in parking versus an ongoing investment in little-used bus routes?
Agree, park n ride is non-starter on these lots unless they want to go in agreement with Metro. This might of interest in Harrah’s as they intend to put some of their underutilized property back into farm production of all
things. Tells you something about the overall growth of the region
A westward expansion from Lambert does support the transit system without park and ride lots as it a stop at Lindbergh Ave and terminous at Earth City/Maryland Heights Expressway offer great links to north south bus corridors. Anyway the County and City can get connectivity with its a metrolink lines, bus services and greenways/trails is a plus to the system and long term sustainability.
Red & Z, my point is that I support and would want to keep expansion within St. Louis City and County. However, I favor that expansion to happen on extending existing metrolink lines in the immediate future rather then build out of a new line – either it be Daniel Boone or North South LIne. Also, any metrolink expansion that can incorporate or improve other infrastructure is important in my mind and should be a deciding factor on its future.
St. Clair County funded their MetroLink extension but it made sense since they had a bus transit system to connect to. St. Charles needs to get their intra-county bus system running as the first step to connecting with the region at large.
Codeboi, agree a lot with Douglas Duckworth’s reply and I also agree that tax dollars as of late seem to go to another arena or strictly cash payouts/entitlements, etc.. We can find better uses. The one thing that I don’t agree with is the perception that taxes are sky high in this country. Our country as a whole now have effective tax rates that haven’t been this low seen since the fifties, over five decades ago!!! It is also a fact that the percentage of gpd we spend on infrastructure is less then half then when the Interstate was first built in St. Charles County.  Once again agree that a build out of transit won’t be desired in St. Charles but at some point you have to maintain everything else that is starting to crumbling.  Â
Chicken or egg argument – if Metrolink is extended to the county line, what incentive would there then be to raise county taxes to push it (further?) into St. Charles County? The folks in St. Charles already get a free ride on the zoo; what makes you think they’ll vote to fund transit? (The most logical transit scenario for St. Charles County are park-and-rides served by commuter bus routes and, potentially, Metrolink. Sure, it would be more convenient if the park-and rides are on the west side of the Missouri River, but having one or more at Harrah’s/Riverport and/or Ameristar would be nearly as convenient.) And, as someone who has paid transit taxes for years, my first priority is to look for ways to maximize transit services for other taxpayers who live within the current service boundaries, not find ways to make them more attractive to freeloaders!
a good start might be an arrangment with Metro to run some park and ride lots and express lines into downtown (similiar to the ones going to Eureka/Arnold). get downtown workers and baseball fans on board. then if that’s succesful, create a few bus “loops” based off of those park and ride lots and some of the bigger attractions/retail locations around St. Chuck.
whatever they were to do, if they do create a st. charles transit system, i would prefer to see it be an extension of Metro, rather than an additional, seperate entity.
a good start might be an arrangment with Metro to run some park and ride lots and express lines into downtown (similiar to the ones going to Eureka/Arnold). get downtown workers and baseball fans on board. then if that’s succesful, create a few bus “loops” based off of those park and ride lots and some of the bigger attractions/retail locations around St. Chuck.
whatever they were to do, if they do create a st. charles transit system, i would prefer to see it be an extension of Metro, rather than an additional, seperate entity.
The service to Arnold was cut a few years back, as well as that to Pacific. Eureka is in St. Louis County, so those folks already pay the transportation sales tax.
I don’t think it matters as much whether it’s part of Metro or a legally separate entity, as long as (like MCT) the transit fareboxes are compatible.
Until the voters in St. Charles County are willing to support Metro financially, through their taxes, they should not receive any Metro service. More than 75% of the cost of any transit trip comes from the taxpayers, and less than 25% comes from the fare a rider pays. St. Charles County does not deserve foreign aid from the taxpayers in St. Louis City and County and Illinois!
I hope to see St. Charles and/or Jefferson County join in on public transit.
BTW, the correct acronym for Madison County Transit is MCT.
I hope to see St. Charles and/or Jefferson County join in on public transit.
BTW, the correct acronym for Madison County Transit is MCT.
Metro used to operate a #134 St. Charles Limited from Mid-Rivers Park-Ride lot across from the QuikTrip in St. Peters, to North Hanley MetroLink. Â That route was discontinued during one of the rounds of service cuts. Â More recently, the #40x I-55 Express did for a few years serve the Richardson Road Park-Ride lot in Arnold, but has since been curtailed to end in St. Louis County; likewise the Eureka Express did go out to Pacific (in Franklin County) for awhile. Â So it’s not like there’s no precedent for express service along those corridors.Â
Meanwhile, both MCT and St. Clair County Transit service significant transit dependent populations. Â For MCT, they are primarily residents of the Riverbend (Alton, East Alton, Wood River, etc.) traveling between points within that community; and similarly residents of the Tri-Cities (Granite City, Venice and Madison) traveling between points within that community. Â The express service into downtown St. Louis is what most of us who live over here see, but more of their operations are within those suburban small towns.
For St. Clair County, there’s clearly a huge transit-dependent population in and around East St. Louis. Â Once you get east of Bluff Road and away from Belleville and Fairview Heights, bus service is pretty sparse.
The service to Arnold was cut a few years back, as well as that to Pacific. Â Eureka is in St. Louis County, so those folks already pay the transportation sales tax.
I don’t think it matters as much whether it’s part of Metro or a legally separate entity, as long as (like MCT) the transit fareboxes are compatible.
It is a huge failure that these communities have not been designed to favor transit. Free for all development is all the rage. It is the method used heavily in the region, not just St. Charles County.
I have cited a book here previously, Vallingby and Farsta, MIT press, by David Pass, reporting on the building of suburbs outside Stockholm Sweden. They planned for a train, a commercial center, walkable communities, and yet they are both suburban areas. In other words you still can live the autocentric life, but convenient alternatives are built into the plan. Living in the suburbs in Stockholm does not condemn you to the narrow lifestyle of regional St. Louis.
Convenient is the operative word here. In St. Louis most transit riders are of the last resort. This is one of the many failures of the current planning
culture and a symptom of the poor design solutions that are in evidence
all over the region, not just St. Charles County.
I can’t remember exactly, but I believe 70 to 80 per cent take transit into Stockholm city over the auto. The successful transit systems I am most familiar elsewhere serve a wide cross section of the populace. This requires an integrated transit/city design approach.
Stockholm took sustainable city building actions in the sixties, the book I have cited has a 1973 copyright. Current design knowledge and discussion in St. Louis are on the level of the stone age. In fact even early St. Louis planning techniques are more sophisticated than those of today.
Until there is a willingness to shape the region to accept transit, questions about St. Charles County are moot. Band aid solutions will never work properly. At this point I don’t believe the City itself has a viable transit/city plan. It would visually show the positive impacts of transit, there is no evidence of that kind of success. (and why TOD is not working)
If we can’t get transit right in the city, I hardly think St. Charles County is attainable.
It is a huge failure that these communities have not been designed to favor transit. Free for all development is all the rage. It is the method used heavily in the region, not just St. Charles County.
I have cited a book here previously, Vallingby and Farsta, MIT press, by David Pass, reporting on the building of suburbs outside Stockholm Sweden. They planned for a train, a commercial center, walkable communities, and yet they are both suburban areas. In other words you still can live the autocentric life, but convenient alternatives are built into the plan. Living in the suburbs in Stockholm does not condemn you to the narrow lifestyle of regional St. Louis.
Convenient is the operative word here. In St. Louis most transit riders are of the last resort. This is one of the many failures of the current planning
culture and a symptom of the poor design solutions that are in evidence
all over the region, not just St. Charles County.
I can’t remember exactly, but I believe 70 to 80 per cent take transit into Stockholm city over the auto. The successful transit systems I am most familiar elsewhere serve a wide cross section of the populace. This requires an integrated transit/city design approach.
Stockholm took sustainable city building actions in the sixties, the book I have cited has a 1973 copyright. Current design knowledge and discussion in St. Louis are on the level of the stone age. In fact even early St. Louis planning techniques are more sophisticated than those of today.
Until there is a willingness to shape the region to accept transit, questions about St. Charles County are moot. Band aid solutions will never work properly. At this point I don’t believe the City itself has a viable transit/city plan. It would visually show the positive impacts of transit, there is no evidence of that kind of success. (and why TOD is not working)
If we can’t get transit right in the city, I hardly think St. Charles County is attainable.
Actually, I believe half of Prop A went to expanding Metrolink. So the county residents already put support behind metrolink expansion
In this context, I think extending west of Lambert to Riverport/Earth City Expressway as Red Medicine suggested is not that bad of an idea. Why? Because it will connect metrolink with another employment center in Earth City within St. Louis county and City as well as two entertainment venues. Build in a bus loop circular to/from station that also stops at the Creve Creour lake boathouse. The line would above grade and could essentially be built mostly on Lambert property and MoDOT ROW via a design build contract.
If St. Charles ever desire a fixed transit system to the airport its a very short distance across the river.
Second alternative, extend Cross County Line to I-55 via River Des Peres greenway. It will maximize the existing line and provide an alternative transport mode to Clayton downtown district that essentially runs through existing right of way. Incorporate the South County road connector/new Shrewsbury I-44 Interchange being planned, connect the Deer Creek & River Des Peres Greenway Trails and rebuild River Des Peres Blvd as they did with Forest Parkway to make it a multimodal infrastructure project for the south county/city.
Either case, both extensions build upon existing transit, minimize lead time and property acquistion versus the thought of building the new Daniel Boone Line.Â
Built to favor or not to is moot at this point for a big chunks of the St. Charles county. If anyhting, I would think it be much more desireable as I think JZ71 alludes to is on how to maximize existing transit service for those who already have and support it. In other words, you can try to build a transit dependent in Wentzville or you can try to improve Delmar or get TOD off the ground around Forest Park Station
In the same breadth, I think a fair question to be asked, what commercial areas would some form of transit be beneficial to St. Charles business community and the low wage workers that make things happen? This might or might not be the crux of Steve’s argument. Minimal service should and could be provided? Someone who might agree is the current head of Metro who happens to be a republican lawyer, former mayor of a very suburban community whose sales tax revenue depended on a lot of people who essentially made minimum wage and probably covered several jobs to make ends meet. A very convincing arguement was made that business will support transit that makes sense for their workers.
Built to favor or not to is moot at this point for a big chunks of the St. Charles county. If anyhting, I would think it be much more desireable as I think JZ71 alludes to is on how to maximize existing transit service for those who already have and support it. In other words, you can try to build a transit dependent in Wentzville or you can try to improve Delmar or get TOD off the ground around Forest Park Station
In the same breadth, I think a fair question to be asked, what commercial areas would some form of transit be beneficial to St. Charles business community and the low wage workers that make things happen? This might or might not be the crux of Steve’s argument. Minimal service should and could be provided? Someone who might agree is the current head of Metro who happens to be a republican lawyer, former mayor of a very suburban community whose sales tax revenue depended on a lot of people who essentially made minimum wage and probably covered several jobs to make ends meet. A very convincing arguement was made that business will support transit that makes sense for their workers.
You miss the point, how do suburbs evolve to take advantage of transit? I don’t care what is in place now, rather what, if any, are the transit goals and how are they achieved?
When the world is dying of heat in a few years the question will come up again I assure you. I forgot to mention the world is dying of oil also.
Fuck the workers and their business interests, if a mass transit system is not designed for general use then it is not viable.
Hey! I can pay you nothing because you take mass transit. The goal of transit is not to supply health care and other industries with low paid employees.
You miss the point totally.
If a transit system is not acceptable to the citizens at large, then it is not acceptable at all. This is not about supplying capitalism thugs with a steady supply of cheap workers.
As a reply to your first question, They are achieved when someone of leadership who makes a convincing argument without profanity on what he or she thinks the populus will support. And I bet you that all of those voters also happen to be workers
My post was not about capitalist THUGS you fool, Its about what residents in St. Charles might be willing to start with if your ever going to see a transit agency formed or taxpayer support for such.
Show me the money! Until the voters in St. Charles County are willing to support Metro financially, through their taxes, they should not receive any Metro service. More than 75% of the cost of any transit trip comes from the taxpayers, and less than 25% comes from the fare a rider pays. St. Charles County does not deserve foreign aid from the taxpayers in St. Louis City and County and Illinois!
As a person raised in St. Peters in the 80’s & 90’s, who now proudly lives in SW city I can largely speak on experience. Metrolink is more appealing to county people, buses are often confusing and perceived differently (dirty, unsafe) to a majority of county residents. Riverport, Harrah’s, and Ameristar already have a massive abundance of parking and could immediately support a park & ride infrastructure. I do not believe Prop A has anything do with expanding Metrolink into St. Charles because the previous ballot that was insanely (my opinion) voted down in the 90’s over-rides any funding for Metrolink expansion to St. Charles. Correct me if I’m wrong. Either way, I think a bus network in St. Charles would be very challenging, and Metrolink would be a wise first step. I’d be happy to see both, but I think one is easier than the other.
Most people live in St. Charles because they don’t want to be connected to the rest of the “scary” world, correct? Â No mass transit makes sense from that perspective.
Most people live in St. Charles because they don’t want to be connected to the rest of the “scary” world, correct? No mass transit makes sense from that perspective.
Yes, some St. Charles residents are flat out racist, but many people I know who moved to St. Charles did so because A) their jobs are out there B) their extended families live out there C) they really are just returning home to where they grew up. Can we really fault them for any of those reasons?
No. But like I said before, life is full of choices. Living in a non-dense, suburban area, with little or no public transit, is a choice, with consequences. Living in an area with a viable public transit system, along with paying taxes to support it, is also a choice. I generally respect people for the choices they make, even when I don’t agree with them. But I draw the line when they want me to “fix” the mistakes that are a direct result of their choices!
As I stated before, some people have more choices than others. You cannot penalize others because they simply have fewer choices than you. Perhaps it was not feasible for them to live anywhere else. Whether it is money, family, or anything else it seems harsh and frankly a bit inconsiderate to simply assume they CHOSE St. Charles and therefore do not need transit.
We’re splitting hairs here, but I don’t disagree that the residents of St. Charles County would benefit from a more robust public transit system. My point is that if public transit is to happen in St. Charles County, it needs to be funded by St. Charles County taxpayers, the same way taxpayers in St. Louis (city & county) and the metro east counties now fund their current public transit systems. If you view this as “harsh” or “penalizing” St. Charles County residents for their choices, so be it. Metro struggles to provide service to the people who are actually paying them for it; the last thing they need to be doing is giving it away for free to a new bunch of freeloaders!
The choice between transit and, say, soccer fields is a simple one. Tax dollars only go so far. You can have a little of both, or all of one or the other. Good government balances both majority will and strong leadership on less-popular issues. Public transit is one of those issues that requires champions, and, apparently, there are few, if any, in St. Charles County. Does this penalize citizens who find it “not feasible to live anywhere else”? Absolutely! But it still remains a local issue that requires local solutions . . . .
Relatively affluent freeloaders.
Thanks for the info.
T & Red – I fully support expanding service, including Metrolink, within the areas that are supporting Metro financially. The nuance I was trying to make was I do not support extending Metrolink out to the service boundaries in hopes of capturing more riders from outside the service area. Much like the federal budget, we need to take care of “our people” first, before we go around fixing problems everywhere else.
As for using the parking at Harrah’s, Ameristar and Verizon for transit park-and-rides, that’s probably a non-starter. They’re all privately-owned facilities, built to serve their specific business needs. Yes, they’re underused on many “working days”, but there are times when they are fully utilized and transit users would not be welcomed, and probably prohibited. While I support the concept of shared parking, it has to work for all involved. Unfortunately, transit parking is like every other kind – it needs to be provided by Metro for its users, to guarantee that it will always available.
The quickest way to discourage transit use by choice riders is to make it unreliable – cancelled or broken buses, unsafe trains, infrequent parking, taking away expected parking.  Predictability is actually more important than cost savings to daily commuters. And providing transit parking in suburban areas actually makes perverse sense. That “last mile”, to a patron’s front door, is always the biggest challenge, in both urban and suburban areas. People will only walk so far, so transit systems need to balance where buses are routed and when they run against the number of riders they (will) attract. Urban density makes the equation easier, while getting suburban riders to drive a few miles to central collection points creates virtual density. It boils down to does it make more sense to make a one-time investment in parking versus an ongoing investment in little-used bus routes?
Until the voters in St. Charles County are willing to support Metro financially, through their taxes, they should not receive any Metro service. More than 75% of the cost of any transit trip comes from the taxpayers, and less than 25% comes from the fare a rider pays. St. Charles County does not deserve foreign aid from the taxpayers in St. Louis City and County and Illinois!
Show me the money! Until the voters in St. Charles County are willing to support Metro financially, through their taxes, they should not receive any Metro service. More than 75% of the cost of any transit trip comes from the taxpayers, and less than 25% comes from the fare a rider pays. St. Charles County does not deserve foreign aid from the taxpayers in St. Louis City and County and Illinois!
Yes, some St. Charles residents are flat out racist, but many people I know who moved to St. Charles did so because A) their jobs are out there B) their extended families live out there C) they really are just returning home to where they grew up. Can we really fault them for any of those reasons?
Already very high taxes? Really, how high? And if the taxes are so high where you live, why do you continue to live there?
No. But like I said before, life is full of choices. Living in a non-dense, suburban area, with little or no public transit, is a choice, with consequences. Living in an area with a viable public transit system, along with paying taxes to support it, is also a choice. I generally respect people for the choices they make, even when I don’t agree with them. But I draw the line when they want me to “fix” the mistakes that are a direct result of their choices!
Think of what taxes and development costs would be if roads and infrastructure were not so heavily subsidized. We all pay for sprawl, whether we live in it or not. Â
As I stated before, some people have more choices than others. You cannot penalize others because they simply have fewer choices than you. Perhaps it was not feasible for them to live anywhere else. Whether it is money, family, or anything else it seems harsh and frankly a bit inconsiderate to simply assume they CHOSE St. Charles and therefore do not need transit.
Agree, park n ride is non-starter on these lots unless they want to go in agreement with Metro. This might of interest in Harrah’s as they intend to put some of their underutilized property back into farm production of all
things. Tells you something about the overall growth of the region
A westward expansion from Lambert does support the transit system without park and ride lots as it a stop at Lindbergh Ave and terminous at Earth City/Maryland Heights Expressway offer great links to north south bus corridors. Anyway the County and City can get connectivity with its a metrolink lines, bus services and greenways/trails is a plus to the system and long term sustainability.
Red & Z, my point is that I support and would want to keep expansion within St. Louis City and County. However, I favor that expansion to happen on extending existing metrolink lines in the immediate future rather then build out of a new line  - either it be Daniel Boone or North South LIne. Also, any metrolink expansion that can incorporate or improve other infrastructure is important in my mind and should be a deciding factor on its future.
Agree, park n ride is non-starter on these lots unless they want to go in agreement with Metro. This might of interest in Harrah’s as they intend to put some of their underutilized property back into farm production of all
things. Tells you something about the overall growth of the region
A westward expansion from Lambert does support the transit system without park and ride lots as it a stop at Lindbergh Ave and terminous at Earth City/Maryland Heights Expressway offer great links to north south bus corridors. Anyway the County and City can get connectivity with its a metrolink lines, bus services and greenways/trails is a plus to the system and long term sustainability.
Red & Z, my point is that I support and would want to keep expansion within St. Louis City and County. However, I favor that expansion to happen on extending existing metrolink lines in the immediate future rather then build out of a new line  - either it be Daniel Boone or North South LIne. Also, any metrolink expansion that can incorporate or improve other infrastructure is important in my mind and should be a deciding factor on its future.
We’re splitting hairs here, but I don’t disagree that the residents of St. Charles County would benefit from a more robust public transit system. My point is that if public transit is to happen in St. Charles County, it needs to be funded by St. Charles County taxpayers, the same way taxpayers in St. Louis (city & county) and the metro east counties now fund their current public transit systems. If you view this as “harsh” or “penalizing” St. Charles County residents for their choices, so be it. Metro struggles to provide service to the people who are actually paying them for it; the last thing they need to be doing is giving it away for free to a new bunch of freeloaders!
The choice between transit and, say, soccer fields is a simple one. Tax dollars only go so far. You can have a little of both, or all of one or the other. Good government balances both majority will and strong leadership on less-popular issues. Public transit is one of those issues that requires champions, and, apparently, there are few, if any, in St. Charles County. Does this penalize citizens who find it “not feasible to live anywhere else”? Absolutely! But it still remains a local issue that requires local solutions . . . .
Because its where I can get a job for my Civil Engineering/Construction Management Career. If you look at the St. Louis Regions growth as a whole in any measurable means it has been below the national average for years – GDP, population, income. Heck, Missouri lost a congressional seat where as Iowa, KS, and Arkansas didn’t if that doesn’t tell you something..Â
My experience is that of owning homes to date in four distinct states – Rural Minnesota, West Chicago Suburb, St. Louis County and now Bay Area of California as well as working through out the continental United States/Maritimes in Canada and Alaska. Yes California is too high just as is Chicago, but was also my best career opportunity.
Yes, Minnesota has higher income, gas and sin taxes but just as reasonable property taxes as St Louis does. Overall in my experience, Minnesota was definitely lower then Chicago and Bay Area even though higher then St Louis. Now compare cities – Twin Cities does better then STL or KC economically, still has an airport hub as well as an airport that isn’t outdated (Minneapolis, Midway, Detriot, Indy, Denver to name a few of relatively new or rebuilt terminals), an expanding light rail/transit service, I believe the schools rate better overall and people on generally healthier (maybe it has to do with the fact that Twin Cities is building an ever expanding trail/greeway network).
My point is not to knock down St. Louis, but emphasizing that being the lowest cost and lowest tax state is not helping Missouri economically as much as people want to believe nor is it attracting jobs. At the end of the day, businesses still need infrastructure to move people and goods and above else an educated workforce.
As a reply to your first question, They are achieved when someone of leadership who makes a convincing argument without profanity on what he or she thinks the populus will support.  And I bet you that all of those voters also happen to be workers
My post was not about capitalist THUGS you fool, Its about what residents in St. Charles might be willing to start with if your ever going to see a transit agency formed or taxpayer support for such.
 Â
For financial and environmental reasons the City cannot build . For our transportation system to sustain
future growth we must use road space and transit facilities more
efficiently and we must become less car dependent.Â
Relatively affluent freeloaders.
Relatively affluent freeloaders.
My reply was somewhat facetious, with a dash of sarcasm for taste. This fella is just one of those misguided folks who think taxes as they stand now are unfair, or who doesn’t realize where his dollars go to, or what services of which he isn’t even aware actually come from his tax dollars at the local, state and federal level. Of course, he may want to know that a significant portion of his federal tax dollars–no one really knows for certain, because it’s classified–in the multi-BillionsUSD range–and I mean multi: as in hundreds of BillionsUSD, ANNUALLY–go to the CIA, NSA, the various black works sites (think B2 bomber, with development costs estimated to be in the 20-35 BillionUSD range, and 2 BillionUSD apiece), and high-tech military R&D. But you don’t hear him complain about that, even though there is no accountability, and the waste and fraud would probably give him a heart attack. I just think it’s funny–ok, it’s kind of a tragedy–that most people don’t even know how their government runs, and how it’s paid for, and what happens when corporate supranationals don’t pay taxes, and the financial sector bilks the US out of TrillionsUSD to bail them out of a problem the financial sector themselves caused. Not to mention the two failed endeavors in Iraq and Afghanistan (at about One BillionUSD currently, probably higher, per week; that doesn’t include medical aftercare) and the ones we don’t even know about. Everyone bitches about Medicare and Social Security (insurance we paid for out of our taxes), but the “defense” contractors and the financial system, ie., Wall St., are bleeding us dry. Meh. I think I’ll have better luck smashing my head against my brick walls in an effort to convince them they are a frame house than I will getting my fellow Americans to see who are actually the real enemies of this country.
  As for St. Chuck, I’m not really concerned about them, as they don’t seem to be very concerned about themselves, vis-a-vis recognizing that the services they take for granted will disappear if douchebags like Todd Akin, et al, get their way locally, statewide, and Nationally. See you on the soup lines, folks.
I am dying to hear your side by side comparison of impressions/experiences of quality of life/sense of community between STL and SF/Bay Area. Disclaimer: I am a product of 25+ years living in the Bay Area, having chosen STL 2X over NorCal.
Who is this Steve Patterson? Apparently, he doesn’t really have a feeling for St. Charles County County and their needs. Having sat on the East-West Gateway Council during the time that Illinois counties were lobbying for their Transit facility, the comments from East West were the same. “…Pass a tax and with the support of the federal monies, you will be able to have a transit system.” Ironically, no one mentioned the additional costs and burden to the county for maintaining such a system. St. Charles County doesn’t need a system for transporting people from St. Louis County to St. Charles County, but we need more Industrial development of all types to put ”OUR PEOPLE” to work. Oh, by the way Mr. Patterson, I’m sure we will find a way to get our people to work.
Who is this Steve Patterson? Apparently, he doesn’t really have a feeling for St. Charles County County and their needs. Having sat on the East-West Gateway Council during the time that Illinois counties were lobbying for their Transit facility, the comments from East West were the same. “…Pass a tax and with the support of the federal monies, you will be able to have a transit system.” Ironically, no one mentioned the additional costs and burden to the county for maintaining such a system. St. Charles County doesn’t need a system for transporting people from St. Louis County to St. Charles County, but we need more Industrial development of all types to put ”OUR PEOPLE” to work. Oh, by the way Mr. Patterson, I’m sure we will find a way to get our people to work.
My original post is about getting around within St. Charles County. I referenced the East West Gateway study for such an intra-county transit system. Like St. Clair & Madisin counties, it makes sense to connect to the broader region but the main thing is getting around within St. Charles County.
My original post is about getting around within St. Charles County. I referenced the East West Gateway study for such an intra-county transit system. Like St. Clair & Madisin counties, it makes sense to connect to the broader region but the main thing is getting around within St. Charles County.
We all know the public transit story: everyone’s unhappy for whatever reason they choose as “topic of the month,†but this time around though, I found something a tad more interesting, and that’s Bombardier’s latest multibillion dollar victory. Maybe I’m just a sucker for corporate drama, but this may be worth a glance for you as well: http://www.pressdisplay.com/pressdisplay/showlink.aspx?bookmarkid=LH6VO8R7RKC1&preview=article&linkid=f304d9c0-23d7-4a4a-8941-4885a2d11ee2&pdaffid=ZVFwBG5jk4Kvl9OaBJc5%2bg%3d%3d
In any case, enjoy 🙂
I do think St Charles needs a viable transit system. This past school year public busing was nearly cancelled from budget cuts, for all students in a 2 mi radius around the schools. Doesn’t sound bad? Well, kids would be crossing Hiway70 on foot as well as climbing the hills of Frenchtown. Working parents had no safe or reliable options; not enough cabs at reasonable rates, and SCAT doesn’t even start running til 9am! I’d use the transit if it was dependably available, I already walk to IGA on occasion. Hope the city govt wakes up to the impending crisis…
I do think St Charles needs a viable transit system. This past school year public busing was nearly cancelled from budget cuts, for all students in a 2 mi radius around the schools. Doesn’t sound bad? Well, kids would be crossing Hiway70 on foot as well as climbing the hills of Frenchtown. Working parents had no safe or reliable options; not enough cabs at reasonable rates, and SCAT doesn’t even start running til 9am! I’d use the transit if it was dependably available, I already walk to IGA on occasion. Hope the city govt wakes up to the impending crisis…
It will be a crisis but it is bigger than St. Charles City, the entire county needs transit and each municipality can’t do their own system.
It will be a crisis but it is bigger than St. Charles City, the entire county needs transit and each municipality can’t do their own system.
Pigs will fly before ST. Charles ever allows Metro to build trains. Its a conservative stronghold that is easily feared into being against trains by using crime issues with Metro.
Besides, most people move to St. Charles because they don’t want to be around people who use public transit. You are never going to see PT in STC simply because they don’t want it. Many won’t be using it.
Pigs will fly before ST. Charles ever allows Metro to build trains. Its a conservative stronghold that is easily feared into being against trains by using crime issues with Metro.
Besides, most people move to St. Charles because they don’t want to be around people who use public transit. You are never going to see PT in STC simply because they don’t want it. Many won’t be using it.
Good point. Bringing transit to STC would only benefit those who don’t live in STC. The thing is, STC probably doesn’t want to bring in people who use public transportation. STC is very easily swayed on the issue when crime is used. One cannot pretend that bringing Metro has devalued some areas. I’ve seen someone get beaten to a bloody pulp at one station. Even though I will continue supporting Metro because I do use it, I can’t really blame STC’s attitude towards it.
If the demand for it was truly there in the first place, they would have voted for it.
I live in STL County, have used Metro for a large part of my lifestyle and recently had to get a car because the so called “benefits” turned out to be a hoax created by PT advocates who are disconnected from the rest of society.
Believe me, those who live in STC don’t want Metro there. They know the so called benefits and they know that the disadvantages far outweigh them.
St. Charles would be nuts to get a bus system or connect to the St. Louis system!  These ‘systems’ are a money pit and usually a way for the fed to give money to employ and transit undesirables from the inner city. This is a MONEY LOSER and worse…. go visit the GALLARIA AND SEE THE ‘value’ that this system brings to your retail outlets!  HIRE YOUR OWN PEOPLE TO WORK IN THE STORES AND SUPPORT THEM WITH YOUR OWN PEOPLE! Don’t get sucked into the illusion that somehow having a bus or rail system ADDS shoppers… it DOESN’T!
St. Charles would be nuts to get a bus system or connect to the St. Louis system! These ‘systems’ are a money pit and usually a way for the fed to give money to employ and transit undesirables from the inner city. This is a MONEY LOSER and worse…. go visit the GALLARIA AND SEE THE ‘value’ that this system brings to your retail outlets! HIRE YOUR OWN PEOPLE TO WORK IN THE STORES AND SUPPORT THEM WITH YOUR OWN PEOPLE! Don’t get sucked into the illusion that somehow having a bus or rail system ADDS shoppers… it DOESN’T!
Ahhh . . . racism, bigotry and ignorance at its finest! The two big reasons to bring transit into St, Charles County are to give St. Charles residents an option other than the freeways for their daily commutes into St. Louis and to give St. Charles employers a bigger pool of potential employees, especially those needed to fill minimum wage positions in retail and hospitality. The vast majority of the criminals aren’t taking public transit, they’re much more likely to just steal a/your car to commit their crimes . . . .
Ahhh . . . racism, bigotry and ignorance at its finest! The two big reasons to bring transit into St, Charles County are to give St. Charles residents an option other than the freeways for their daily commutes into St. Louis and to give St. Charles employers a bigger pool of potential employees, especially those needed to fill minimum wage positions in retail and hospitality. The vast majority of the criminals aren’t taking public transit, they’re much more likely to just steal a/your car to commit their crimes . . . .