Readers Split on Naming Commercial District
When last week’spoll (Name the future commercial district along Grand at the Old White Water Tower) started I thought the number of responses was going to be quite low, but it ended about typical (104). Â But unlike most weeks, the results ended up being tied at four levels.
#1 (tie)
- Grand Water Tower District 20 [19.23%]
- Doesn’t matter, will never become a commercial district again 20 [19.23%]
- College Hill 20 [19.23%]
I knew there would be many that would take the negative answer, just glad to see it didn’t get more votes than any other. I voted for College Hill, the name of the neighborhood, Â but then I started thinking the commercial district and adjacent neighborhood should have their own identities.
#2 (tie)
- Bissell Point 8 [7.69%]
- The Column 8 [7.69%]
- The Corinthian 8 [7.69%]
- Other: 8 [7.69%]
I like Bissell Point as that was the name of the water plant that required both water towers in College Hill.
#3 (tie)
- 20 Grand 5 [4.81%]
- Grand College Hill 5 [4.81%]
#4 (tie)
- Old White 1 [0.96%]
- unsure/no opinion 1 [0.96%]
The eight other answers were:
- who cares?
- the pits
- The towers
- Do master plan first, then you will know what the name is.
- Grand Column
- tower point
- Ask local residents for their preferred name.
- The Intersection of Crack and Guns
For several of the above, may I direct you to STLtoday.com.
I would have asked local residents but I don’t want their religion forced upon me just to talk, as I found out when I tried to set up a casual meeting. Hopefully I can find residents outside the official group that I can meet with in a place other than a church and without a prayer at the start and end of the meeting. More residents and businesses are needed, a closed religious group will not accomplish that goal.
The marketing of the neighborhood and district clearly needs significant help, the type of help not gained through prayer. You know things like consistent marketing of the name, website, Twitter & Facebook, etc. Neighborhood organizations should be inclusive and secular.
As I said above I think the neighborhood and commercial district need their own branding and campaigns. For the commercial district I’m partial to Bissell Point at College Hill. We would just call it Bissell Point for short, but the “at College Hill” would help market the neighborhood as well.
I suggest the following for the commercial district:
- Set up a design charrette to plan where new buildings should be constructed, along with their massing & form. Adopt a form-based code based on the outcome.
- Set up marketing for the neighborhood  & commercial district; a blog, Twitter account & a Facebook page for each.
- Concentrate businesses on the circle and to the west, residential to the east of the circle.
- Consider a Community Improvement District (CID) to help fund public improvements in the district.
- Plan for restaurants around the circle with outdoor seating facing the water tower.
- Work with Metro to promote arrival by MetroBus to minimize the need for large parking lots.
Many more things must be done, of course, but this is a start.
The potential is there, but will it be realized?
– Steve Patterson
Two questions. Which college is College Hill named for? And, if there’s an “official group” already working on plans for THEIR neighborhood, isn’t it pretty presumptuous to dismiss them and/or their efforts because of your own, personal spritual beliefs?
Two questions. Which college is College Hill named for? And, if there’s an “official group” already working on plans for THEIR neighborhood, isn’t it pretty presumptuous to dismiss them and/or their efforts because of your own, personal spritual beliefs?
Saint Louis University had a working farm here before being developed. The notion of having neighborhoods defined by religion (Catholoc, Baptist, Muslim, Mormon, etc) seems very antiquated to me. I’m suggesting their religious segregation isn’t working for them, the neighborhood needs people, businesses, and investment. Their actions is a guarantee none of those will ever happen.
Steve is right…while prayer might comfort the group it’s going to do nothing to improve the area. Change requires real action not just happy thoughts. St. Louis’s entrenched faith based lifestyle didn’t save it from it’s decline and it won’t miraculously revive it either.
Continuous occupied buildings built to the street is key. Something along the lines of what was accomplished in Old North. Steve’s idea about restaurants is good to. I live in South City near Mac Ave and often find myself in the running store after a breakfast or having breakfast there after visiting the running store.
While I agree that “St. Louis’s entrenched faith based lifestyle didn’t save it from it’s decline and it won’t miraculously revive it either”, in the immortal words of Donald Rumsfeld, “You go to war with the army that you have.” There are only two ways to jump-start development in a neighborhood, you either energize and leverage the efforts of the residents that are already there or you bring in outside people – developers, investors, “experts”, new property owners – and you head in a completely different direction. While the efforts, to date, leave much to be desired, I see even less interest from non-residents in doing anything meaningful, in the here and now. While all of Steve’s bullet points are laudable goals, I’m seeing a lot of academic, ivory-tower, planning-speak with no real focus on actual implementation strategies. This seems more like wishful, build-it-and-they-will-come planning, without engaging any real end users. And my experience is that most people in established neighborhoods take a pretty dim view of being told what they must think and do, especially when it comes in unsolicited!
agreed! Steve’s ideas are fabulous, but they lack the most important elements: actual engagement with the actual neighbors and money. whether or not you like the prayer group, they’re people who live there. they’re your clients. they will have to the ones to come together and bring in developers and retailers, because south city residents can’t pretend to know what is best for the north city neighborhood.
JZ, remember that “leveraging” efforts of existing residents often translates to public funding/subsidy, and that’s a good thing.
Saint Louis University had a working farm here before being developed. The notion of having neighborhoods defined by religion (Catholoc, Baptist, Muslim, Mormon, etc) seems very antiquated to me. I’m suggesting their religious segregation isn’t working for them, the neighborhood needs people, businesses, and investment. Their actions is a guarantee none of those will ever happen.
Steve is right…while prayer might comfort the group it’s going to do nothing to improve the area.  Change requires real action not just happy thoughts.  St. Louis’s entrenched faith based lifestyle didn’t save it from it’s decline and it won’t miraculously revive it either.Â
Continuous occupied buildings built to the street is key.  Something along the lines of what was accomplished in Old North.  Steve’s idea about restaurants is good to.  I live in South City near Mac Ave and often find myself in the running store after a breakfast or having breakfast there after visiting the running store.
While I agree that “St. Louis’s entrenched faith based lifestyle didn’t save it from it’s decline and it won’t miraculously revive it either”, in the immortal words of Donald Rumsfeld, “You go to war with the army that you have.” There are only two ways to jump-start development in a neighborhood, you either energize and leverage the efforts of the residents that are already there or you bring in outside people – developers, investors, “experts”, new property owners – and you head in a completely different direction. While the efforts, to date, leave much to be desired, I see even less interest from non-residents in doing anything meaningful, in the here and now. While all of Steve’s bullet points are laudable goals, I’m seeing a lot of academic, ivory-tower, planning-speak with no real focus on actual implementation strategies.  This seems more like wishful, build-it-and-they-will-come planning, without engaging any real end users. And my experience is that most people in established neighborhoods take a pretty dim view of being told what they must think and do, especially when it comes in unsolicited!
agreed! Steve’s ideas are fabulous, but they lack the most important elements: actual engagement with the actual neighbors and money. whether or not you like the prayer group, they’re people who live there. they’re your clients. they will have to the ones to come together and bring in developers and retailers, because south city residents can’t pretend to know what is best for the north city neighborhood.
Really love when white, middle-class people foist their equally offensive views down the throats of people in poor areas that already have community through their faith. Who are we to tell these people their community is not going to fix their problems, but our version will? And by fix, it should be read “make safe, interesting, and comfortable for white, middle class people.”
Really love when white, middle-class people foist their equally offensive views down the throats of people in poor areas that already have community through their faith. Who are we to tell these people their community is not going to fix their problems, but our version will? And by fix, it should be read “make safe, interesting, and comfortable for white, middle class people.”
When I got off the bus the driver, an African American female, said “be careful.” I wasn’t worried. I don’t love when people push their religion on everyone, even those they contacted. Yes, I was contacted by someone associated with College Hill. When I said I was interested in hearing more of the history is when i learned we couldn’t just meet at a coffeehouse sans prayer. The idea of religious segregation is offensive, just as forced racial segregation was. I’m not going to sit by and let a very small group of people block the rebirth of one of the most interesting sections of our city.
A faith community and an actual community are 2 different things. Vibrant, safe and healthy communities help improve the city for everyone and are the business and responsibly of all it’s citizens. A religious community is a private group of individuals that shares a unique dogma amongst it’s members which was developed long ago in a far off land without regard for what is going on in STL. While this group should no doubt play a roll in community development (as a member of the larger community) it would be a mistake to let a closed group railroad the process.
I can assure you that “white middle-class people” are not the only folks in the Lou would would like to see quality of life and economic changes come to North City. I have only lived in the USA for just over 4 years but I can tell you that “white middle-class people” and all other “middle-class people” around here seem to want the same things….. “safe, interesting, and comfortable” communities….as you said.
When I got off the bus the driver, an African American female, said “be careful.” I wasn’t worried. I don’t love when people push their religion on everyone, even those they contacted. Yes, I was contacted by someone associated with College Hill. When I said I was interested in hearing more of the history is when i learned we couldn’t just meet at a coffeehouse sans prayer. The idea of religious segregation is offensive, just as forced racial segregation was. I’m not going to sit by and let a very small group of people block the rebirth of one of the most interesting sections of our city.
JZ, remember that “leveraging” efforts of existing residents often translates to public funding/subsidy, and that’s a good thing.
Pray for what you want, work for what you need.
Considering how badly the local neighborhood has been doing in reviving this intersection, I think Steve is well within his rights to criticize their efforts. Yes, it ultimately is the residents’ responsibility to fight for their neighborhood. Claims of “city hall ignores us” are no longer a good enough excuse in my book.
Pray for what you want, work for what you need.
Considering how badly the local neighborhood has been doing in reviving this intersection, I think Steve is well within his rights to criticize their efforts. Yes, it ultimately is the residents’ responsibility to fight for their neighborhood. Claims of “city hall ignores us” are no longer a good enough excuse in my book.
A faith community and an actual community are 2 different things.  Vibrant, safe and healthy communities help improve the city for everyone and are the business and responsibly of all it’s citizens.  A religious community is a private group of individuals that shares a unique dogma amongst it’s members which was developed long ago in a far off land without regard for what is going on in STL.  While this group should no doubt play a roll in community development (as a member of the larger community) it would be a mistake to let a closed group railroad the process.
I can assure you that “white middle-class people” are not the only folks in the Lou would would like to see quality of life and economic changes come to North City.  I have only lived in the USA for just over 4 years but I can tell you that “white middle-class people” and all other “middle-class people” around here seem to want the same things….. “safe, interesting, and comfortable” communities….as you said.
Not only does Mr Woodard (of the photographed Peace park) know about development he was/is married to NSO Kathy Woodard who surely has some insight on community development as she has been in the 5th ward for a long time and has witnessed ONSL revitalization firsthand. I think Mr Patterson’s ideas are valid but would not hold weight in the community without community support. I see the same possiblity in N Market between 25th and 22nd streets. Even though it’s now being described as a prairie it wasn’t always that way. My sisters and brothers talk of a time when it was the neighborhood main street with a bakery, restaurants, a hardware store among other services.  When my family moved from their flat on Carr to our home on Mullanphy in 1963 you bet there was a large Catholic presence (5 churches in walking distance). They have been praying for this area to change since the 70’s.  It could change with the partnership of residents, church groups and forward thinking individuals that have real plans.Â
Not only does Mr Woodard (of the photographed Peace park) know about development he was/is married to NSO Kathy Woodard who surely has some insight on community development as she has been in the 5th ward for a long time and has witnessed ONSL revitalization firsthand. I think Mr Patterson’s ideas are valid but would not hold weight in the community without community support. I see the same possiblity in N Market between 25th and 22nd streets. Even though it’s now being described as a prairie it wasn’t always that way. My sisters and brothers talk of a time when it was the neighborhood main street with a bakery, restaurants, a hardware store among other services. When my family moved from their flat on Carr to our home on Mullanphy in 1963 you bet there was a large Catholic presence (5 churches in walking distance). They have been praying for this area to change since the 70’s. It could change with the partnership of residents, church groups and forward thinking individuals that have real plans.
“Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.” – Albert Einstein
You may call it insane but it is true. There are people in the neighborhood that you speak of that have been there since before we were born. They stayed when the fear of the City was at its highest (around the time you took the first photo). They may not know how to organize a charette or how to even spark positive attention to College Hill but they do know that it (College Hill) belongs to them. You seem very knowledgeable as well as committed to change. Don’t give up on the church vein of the community. They can help you gain access to the residents that are holding on an praying for the same change you are. You will need their numbers as they need your insight.
We also need to accept that few people belong to only one “group” – we identify with our block, a neighborhood, a faith / place of worship, a city, a region, where we work, where we go / went to school, professional teams, political parties, etc., etc., etc. There will always be overlaps, and excluding people because of one association doesn’t make much sense if you’re trying to include many of the others . . .
This neighborhood as well as many other deserves a helping hand from those who are “in the know” about development, sustainability and community empowerment. It is not fair that money was spent in the 1990’s to illuminate the water tower at 20th and Grand yet the buildings that would have been showcased with open storefronts and patio dining were demolished. I am sure that services would be welcomed by all in the vicinity. I don’t live over there, but I drive to get a bite to eat anyway so why not keep the money local. I love the idea of organic growth like many nabes have commited to in the City. However will take a partnership after all this is an inhabited neighborhood not the Arch.
“Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.” – Albert Einstein
Related?: “Port/North Riverfront Land Use Study Public Meeting is August 23
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The City of St. Louis is in the midst of a major land use study – the Port/North Riverfront Land Use Study – that is looking at how we can best use our north riverfront corridor. The study area includes roughly 30% of St. Louis’s riverfront, the Riverfront Trail, the McKinley Bridge Bikeway, and the proposed Trestle bikeway.
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A public information meeting will be held on Tuesday, August 23, 2011 from 4:00 – 6:00 PM at the Metropolitan Sewer District (MSD) Bissell Point Wastewater Treatment Plant, in the Environmental Compliance Building Auditorium.
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Directions to this his conveniently located building are: Take I-70 to Grand Avenue; go east until Grand Avenue dead ends at the front gates of the MSD Bissell Point Wastewater Treatment Plant. Enter the front gates and follow the signs to the Environmental Compliance Building. The auditorium is located inside the building, just to the left, after entering the front doors.”
Related?: “Port/North Riverfront Land Use Study Public Meeting is August 23
The City of St. Louis is in the midst of a major land use study – the Port/North Riverfront Land Use Study – that is looking at how we can best use our north riverfront corridor. The study area includes roughly 30% of St. Louis’s riverfront, the Riverfront Trail, the McKinley Bridge Bikeway, and the proposed Trestle bikeway.
A public information meeting will be held on Tuesday, August 23, 2011 from 4:00 – 6:00 PM at the Metropolitan Sewer District (MSD) Bissell Point Wastewater Treatment Plant, in the Environmental Compliance Building Auditorium.
Directions to this his conveniently located building are: Take I-70 to Grand Avenue; go east until Grand Avenue dead ends at the front gates of the MSD Bissell Point Wastewater Treatment Plant. Enter the front gates and follow the signs to the Environmental Compliance Building. The auditorium is located inside the building, just to the left, after entering the front doors.”
Close but not related.
Horrible article. Spend more than one day in the neighbrohood walking around and then make judgements on how much religion plays into the degredation of a community. I bet you 90% of the individuals in that community do not attend church on a weekly basis. Most of the church population in the neighborhood comes from the county. The city hasn’t put a dime along that corridor since 1980. The aldmeran is sitting on money to rehab the tower but still has not spent it. Lots are tied up by private owners making it harder to redevelop. The property values are so low private developers wont even return a phone call back about investing money in the neighborhood. The neighborhood is teetering on the verge of losing its state historic tax credit because the lack of historic buidlings (falling down around the few neighbors who live in the neighborhood).
Religious organizations and social service agencies are the only ones at this point in time even making a contributions into a neighborhood which has been neglected for the past 20 years. Ask your local alderman how he has been in office for over 20 years and not done anything remotely positive for this traffic busy “business corridor.”
We agree! The alderman hasn’t done anything positive. In emailing with a representative of the neighborhood she made it clear if I wanted to talk it had to be at their church and I’d have to sit through prayer. Then I visited and say signs the neighborhood organization is heavily influenced by religion. I have no doubt that most residents don’t attend church, but the neighborhood leaders make it a requirement to be involved.
Close but not related.
You may call it insane but it is true. There are people in the neighborhood that you speak of that have been there since before we were born. They stayed when the fear of the City was at its highest (around the time you took the first photo). They may not know how to organize a charette or how to even spark positive attention to College Hill but they do know that it (College Hill) belongs to them. You seem very knowledgeable as well as committed to change.  Don’t give up on the church vein of the community. They can help you gain access to the residents that are holding on an praying for the same change you are.  You will need their numbers as they need your insight.Â
We also need to accept that few people belong to only one “group” – we identify with our block, a neighborhood, a faith / place of worship, a city, a region, where we work, where we go / went to school, professional teams, political parties, etc., etc., etc. There will always be overlaps, and excluding people because of one association doesn’t make much sense if you’re trying to include many of the others . . .
This neighborhood as well as many other deserves a helping hand from those who are “in the know” about development, sustainability and community empowerment. It is not fair that money was spent in the 1990’s to illuminate the water tower at 20th and Grand yet the buildings that would have been showcased with open storefronts and patio dining were demolished.  I am sure that services would be welcomed by all in the vicinity. I don’t live over there, but I drive to get a bite to eat anyway so why not keep the money local.  I love the idea of organic growth like many nabes have commited to in the City. However will take a partnership after all this is an inhabited neighborhood not the Arch.
Horrible article. Spend more than one day in the neighbrohood walking around and then make judgements on how much religion plays into the degredation of a community. I bet you 90% of the individuals in that community do not attend church on a weekly basis. Most of the church population in the neighborhood comes from the county. The city hasn’t put a dime along that corridor since 1980. The aldmeran is sitting on money to rehab the tower but still has not spent it. Lots are tied up by private owners making it harder to redevelop. The property values are so low private developers wont even return a phone call back about investing money in the neighborhood. The neighborhood is teetering on the verge of losing its state historic tax credit because the lack of historic buidlings (falling down around the few neighbors who live in the neighborhood).Â
Religious organizations and social service agencies are the only ones at this point in time even making a contributions into a neighborhood which has been neglected for the past 20 years. Ask your local alderman how he has been in office for over 20 years and not done anything remotely positive for this traffic busy “business corridor.”
We agree! The alderman hasn’t done anything positive. In emailing with a representative of the neighborhood she made it clear if I wanted to talk it had to be at their church and I’d have to sit through prayer. Then I visited and say signs the neighborhood organization is heavily influenced by religion. I have no doubt that most residents don’t attend church, but the neighborhood leaders make it a requirement to be involved.