Readers: City & County Should Reconcile
More than ninety percent of readers that voted in the poll last week favor some form of reconciliation between the City of St. Louis and St. Louis County. Voting was nearly double the usual.
Q: Should St. Louis City & St. Louis County Reconcile? If So, How?
- St. Louis City should rejoin St. Louis County as the 91st municipally 65 [36.31%]
- St. Louis City & St. Louis County (and all its municipalities, schools districts, fire districts, etc) should become one government body 52 [29.05%]
- St. Louis City & St. Louis County (and all its municipalities) should become one government body 45 [25.14%]
- St. Louis City & St. Louis County should remain separate, but partner more 12 [6.7%]
- St. Louis City & St. Louis County should remain completely separate (no change) 5 [2.79%]
- Unsure/No Opinion 0 [0%]
More than 54% favor some form of consolidated government, not just becoming the 91st municipality. If St. Louis became the 91st municipality it would be the largest in terms of population and 2nd largest in land area, Wildwood is slightly larger in area.
For years I’ve favored a super consolidation — all municipalities, school districts, fire districts, etc being made into one. But I recognize this wouldn’t be a magic bullet to solve issues of poverty, unemployment, stagnant/declining population, in the city & county. Some regional problems would be solved, but others would be created in the process — unintended consequences tend to pop up.
What needs to take place isn’t a discussion of solutions, but a discussion of problems facing the region. From there we can work toward a collective solution(s). Our history has been a group or individual has pushed a change in governance out of selfish interests. There’s been some mild effort to give the appearance of a grassroots movement rather than what it is.
I want change, I think the region needs change. But we must learn from the consequences of other city-county consolidations.We shouldn’t do this so one person can get his wish to end income taxes and fund government largely through sales taxes. As a low-income person I know the burden sales taxes place on the poor. I’m not willing to suffer so millionaires can reduce their obligation to society.
Here are some groups currently working on consolidation/merger:
Right now I’m still research each to see if they’re legit, or just a front. Part of that includes reading from a variety of sources, for example:
If the city’s current system of having “county” offices that operate independently of the city is an absurd waste of resources and duplication of services, then what is to be said of a county that has 43 fire districts and more than 60 police departments? Compared outright to St. Louis County, St. Louis city is a model of economy and streamlined public services. It may be ridiculous that the city has a comptroller, treasurer, collector of revenue and license collector, but for many of its square miles the county is nothing – governmentally speaking – more than a speed trap that feeds money into one strip mall city hall or another. (St. Louis American)
I believe we can have a better government structure that makes us competitive with other regions, bettering the lives of everyone, not just a few. It’ll take open dialog to get there.
— Steve Patterson
As with any poll where the respondents self select, these results are likely skewed. It would be interesting to see what the results would be if the number of respondents from the city and the county were proportional to the actual number of residents in the city and county respectively – many county residents see absolutely no upside for the city either rejoining or merging with the county. (And to be clear, I’m in favor of as much consolidation as possible, I’m just not sure how we, in the city, will successfully “sell” our counterparts in the county on any significant changes to the status quo.)
I am one county resident who just can’t imagine any single county advantage for a city/county consolidation. Today’s news carries an article on combining city/county crime rates as a means to curb the notion that the city is crime-ridden. That’s insanity! Why would I favor this proposal? What’s in it for me? The best way to improve the city’s crime rates is to curb the criminal activities in North St. Louis City. That will have a huge impact on the statistics. and the County schools have already essentially merged with City schools. In a few years, we’ll learn what impact, if any, this has on both school systems. I send my kids to private schools, so I’m not personally affected by this unofficial consolidation. If I had wanted to live in the city, I would have bought a house in the city. I don’t, and I didn’t, and I won’t!
Tom, do you share your negative views of the city with your kids? What is their opinion of the city?
Does your family generally have a sense of pride in the St. Louis community?
Why do you live in “St. Louis”?
guest – I’m not sure what your point is or may be – you’re getting into the whole context question that always comes up when you’re talking with someone else. Depending on where the other person lives and/or how familiar they are with the city, itself, informs any definition of where you “live”. If I’m talking with someone who lives four states away, “St. Louis” encompasses most of St. Charles County, parts of Jefferson County, parts of Illinois and all of St. Louis County and St. Louis city. If I’m talking to someone in Maplewood or Benton Park, the demarcation lines are pretty clear and much more specific. We all live where we live because of multiple trade-offs – personal relationships, jobs, economic resources (or lack thereof), prejudices (real or irrational), community ties (or lack thereof), etc. – and we all tailor the “where we live” answer to the audience we’re addressing.
Most arguments for consolidation are made arguing that certain things need to be “fixed”. I can identify many of them, and I’m certain that there are many others. One should-be-simple solution would be consolidating all our fire protection services into one mega department. In some ways, that’s already happening, through mutual aid agreements. But there is also a lot of pride in having smaller, “local” departments, even if it makes little economic sense to continue to do so. Add in that consolidation would require restructuring many existing management positions, reducing, for example, the number of “chiefs” from dozens to just one, along with eliminating multiple governing and taxing boards. People simply don’t like to give up any of their “power”, real or perceived, and many will fight, hard, for whatever they may now “have”, even if it means that government services are not being delivered as economically and efficiently as they can be. And until the reasons for changing overcome the inertia of “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”, any discussions are going to be more hypothetical than productive.
The context is that “Tom” made the flat statement that he cannot think of one single advantage as to why the County would merge with the city. That’s a pretty strong repudiation of the city by “Tom” if you ask me. So, that’s my point.
Does “Tom” make such strong repudiations against the city around his kids? If so, what do his kids think of the city? Is “Tom” planting the seeds of racism by family tradition? Is “Tom” planting seeds of class-ism and an anti-urban bias/fear? Does “Tom” think about what kind of message he is sending his kids?
I don’t know about you, JZ, but I can think of a lot of benefits to both STL City and STL County through one or consolidations. I’d say it would be better for the region as a whole for starters.
Like you, I can see many benefits for both the City and the County. But I’m also not from around here, so I don’t bring a lot of the baggage and the preconceptions to the discussion that many of the “natives” and “old-timers” apparently have. My take is that St Louis, as a region, is much more parochial (in the secular sense) than many other regions around the country. Many people around here only seem to care about what happens in their own little corner of the world, and could care less about what’s happening even 5 miles away (except for pro sports), and that they actually have a lot of “fear” of that unknown. I also don’t think that what Tom is or isn’t explicitly teaching his kids is all that important – we learn more from observing than from being told, and if Tom is afraid, his kids will be, as well. But I think his objections, like many other suburbanites’, are based more in economics than in fear of daily life People in areas that are “better off” than the median are generally paying higher taxes, and fear that some of their taxes will be diverted to “poorer” areas, should consolidation occur. These folks don’t want to see the quality of their schools slip, see the quality of their parks decline, see less police and an increase in crime and see degraded street maintenance. Until the advocates of consolidation can address / allay those fears, there really are few reasons to support consolidation “It’s all about me” may sound selfish, but that’s how most people vote . . . .
1) I grew up on a farm in Southern Alabama. We raised cotton, soybeans and goats! I attended an elementary school that accommodated grades k through 3 in one classroom; 4 through 6 in another; 7 and 8 in the converted attic. I now enjoy living in a rural area of West County far from the congestion and activity of STL city.2) I live in STL because I signed a 5 year contract to do so with my California-based employer. When the contract expires, I will move to a city of my choice. 3) My kids were also born in rural Alabama. They are 10, 10 and 7. They know very little of the city. And frankly, the twins’ interest in the city wanes daily as they read more of the Post Dispatch and all the good news about the city’s crime rates. 4) My wife was also raised in Southern Alabama, and she is terrified to travel anywhere east of Hampton Avenue. Our family recently attended our first major league baseball game in downtown STL, and while the kids enjoyed it, my wife was terrified throughout the entire game of the eventual walk back to the car…..so I found the game to be a bit tense! 6) This fear is real, not perceived. She attended a small-town college in the south where violent crime is virtually non-existent. And when she picks up the paper and reads about the senseless crime and criminal activity that seems to find its way to the core of the city, her fears don’t deescalate! 7) Not everyone is seasoned to live in the “city”. We are among those who are not comfortable “east of Hampton”. 8) No, I am not sending a negative message to my kids. They are smart enough to form their own opinions, and we give them the tools and freedom to do that. They can’t be brainwashed; nor would we consider trying. Right now, they stay busy enrolled in a school that offers rigorous challenges to students, caring for their horses, raising their goats, learning personal responsibility doing daily, meaningful chores and enjoying a fun-filled lifestyle that may or may not be considered counter-cultural in the context of city life. Hey, we all do the best we can for our families. Sometimes we make mistakes–but not always.
Sorry to hear you’re freaked about going east of Hampton. That means you miss things like neighborhood/ethnic festivals, Mardis Gras, South Grand, both Water Towers, the Central Library, the Fox, the Blues, the Riverfront, Carondelet, Crown Candy, Tower Grove Park, Soulard Market, Lafayette Square, the Botanical Garden and so much more . You’re probably also one of those people that says St. Louis is a bore.
I’m still waiting to hear a solid argument about why consolidation would make sense to Tom and others who share his views/fears. Consolidating crime statistics would make the city statistically safer on a national scale. It would do absolutely nothing for Tom’s wife, who sees/reads the daily news, here, including everything from drive-by shootings in north city to repeated multiple car break-ins in Forest Park to students being bused an hour and a half, each way, to accredited schools. Tom makes choices, I make choices, Moe makes choices, Steve make choices and you make choices. Tom has a negative view of much of the city. You apparently have a negative view of the county. How do we get to consensus? Certainly not the “I’m right and you’re wrong” way. The only way is to find common ground, identify how any change will be an improvement, for most people, and not just for the half, or less, that will be “receivers”. The fundamental issue is the perception, in the county, is that doing anything for the city will involve sending/reallocating significant county tax dollars to “fix” something(s) that city folks that neglected / screwed up, for years – pensions, infrastructure maintenance and schools, to name three big ones. Tom articulated real fears. You came back with a list a festivals and attractions, none of which will be affected or improved through consolidation – he can still come to Crown Candy, visit the Main Library or get drunk at Mardi Gras, if he chooses – none of these will be going away anytime soon, with or without consolidation. We simply need better arguments / reasons (other than the city is a great place) if we want to see any movement on the concept of consolidation!
I didn’t say that my wife or I “freak out”. I stated that she is “terrified” to go anywhere east of Hampton. This is not to say that she totally avoids the areas that you mention in your post. Case in point: our visit to Busch Stadium. But unfortunately, we don’t avail ourselves to these areas as much as we would if our perception of safety were different. No, I don’t consider STL a “bore”. It’s just not my first choice.
A trip to Busch Stadium! That’s a real city adventure! What about Forest Park? You do realize half the park is “east of Hampton”, right? As far as benefits to St. Louis COunty from consolidation, how about job creation and economic development? St. Louis Going from 51st largest city in the country to 8th would certainly draw more attention to the region as a place to do business, relocate .
Actually, bigger is not necessarily better in this case. Safety and how safe the city is perceived to be whether its population is 300,000 or 1,300,000, will attract conventions to the downtown and businesses to want to locate in the area. Case in point: Detroit. Huge geographic area. Not much for safety. And I don’t see businesses flocking to the region, or many conventions on the slate. Frankly, in the case of county/city merger, I still see no significant economic or social benefits to the county.
Perception is often based on statistics and demographics. Combining city & county will improve numbers for both. However, poor crime-infested neighborhoods in the city & county will remain unchanged until job prospects improve.
I can’t believe you actually believe the last sentence you wrote. Crime in NSL neighborhoods predates the recent economic downturn. Even when jobs are plentiful, crime in NSL neighborhoods will run rampant. Just because a job is available doesn’t mean that a person will apply for that job and choose to be employed. I have no tolerance for laziness and greed and for those who make a habit of sponging off my hard-earned tax dollars.
Individual county residents may benefit in several ways, Any
resulting improvement in the city will be good for some county
residents, such as those who work in the city, have family in
the city, visit friends in the city or go places in the city. Second
is the possibility that city-county merger may positively affect
the image of the city nation-wide, and thus lead to more jobs.
Third is the possibility that the move may lead to overall improve-
ment and thus increase pride in the new city, which in turn may
lead to children staying around and not moving to greener pas-
tures. All of this is admittedly somewhat intangible but may be
food for thought. The important thing is to remoive King Rex from
the project so it all doesnt come to some scheme to cut taxes on
the rich.
Tom,
sorry your wife has irrational fears. Yes, there is some crime “east of Hampton” as there is in Dutzow or Montgomery or Mobile, but it is extraordinarily rare for a visitor to be the victim of a crime downtown. A much more rational fear would be driving on the highways and backroads anywhere in Missouri….. that’s where most harm happens.
Your use of “irrational” is interesting. Actually an “irrational” fear carries two separate definitions: 1) A strong dislike or aversion. 2) A persistent fear of a specific thing that compels a person to avoid it, despite awareness that it is not dangerous.
My wife’s irrational fear (if you will) fits definition #1 because she has documented proof that criminal activity is prevalent in areas east of Hampton, and therefore there would be no awareness of safety. Spend a buck at the newsstand tomorrow morning, and you’ll learn what I’m referring to!
Actually, she drives a 5153# SUV, and I’m certain she feels her chances of surviving the highways and backroads of Missouri are greater when she’s driving than when she’s walking down Washington Avenue at 7:00 in the evening.
I had to laugh at your question about my “planting the seeds of racism by family tradition.” Read my post. We’re from Alabama, not Washington state. Both my wife and I grew up playing with Blacks and attending grade school with Blacks.The best man in my wedding is Black. Although I am Catholic, my wife is Baptist, and our wedding ceremony was concelebrated by a White Catholic Jesuit priest and a Black Baptist minister! “Black” is not an issue. “Behavior”- and-apparent-disregard-for-the-value-of-human-life is the issue.
Whenever I think of open-minded pro-intregration states, Alabama is always at the top of the list: http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/09/15/20507957-birmingham-remembers-4-little-girls-50-years-after-infamous-church-bombing
Then you should probably educate yourself to the reality of southern Alabama. You have always shown a provincial, close-minded attitude toward anything different or outside your limited experience, and your perception of Alabama should be no different. Post all the links you want. The reality can be found when you step into everyday southern Alabama life. Most southern Alabamians are eager to embrace different lifestyles, races, religions. You and your partner should plan to visit southern Alabama, where no gestures of affection between the two of you would hardly be given a second thought. And that same level of acceptance applies to race as well. ( Note: Montgomery,Birmingham, Selma, Alburn are not located in southern Alabama, and those areas are as different as KC and STL.)
Interesting, originally you said just Alabama, not southern Alabama. I’m provincial huh? “1:the superior of a province of a Roman Catholic religious order
2: one living in or coming from a province
3a : a person of local or restricted interests or outlook
b : a person lacking urban polish or refinement”
Got a mirror handy?
Can’t get much more southern in Alabama than Mobile: “In 1963 three African-American students brought a case against the Mobile County School Board for being denied admission to Murphy High School.[40] The court ordered that the three students be admitted to Murphy for the 1964 school year, leading to the desegregation of Mobile County’s school system.[40] The Civil Rights Movement led to the end of legal racial segregation with passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile,_Alabama
And your point is? Don’t forget that the early 60’s marked the slow beginning of the end of segregation, and the Mobile County School incident was just one of many similar incidents that occurred all over the US at the time. (Hell, this week alone in the news we read of a fraternity that STILL doesn’t accept minorities.) Show me any city in the US in early 1960 that openly embraced integration. And to illustrate that your beloved STL doesn’t have a clean civil rights slate, talk with some of the old timers who worked out of the police central at Clark and Tucker. Ask them to share some of their stories about how “justice” was administered to minorities in the old days in STL, in and around the Mississippi River. Don’t fool yourself: Mobile is no more southern than Birmingham or Montgomery. Mobile is race divided, almost as much as STL is! Birmingham and Montgomery are worse than Mobile…but certainly no worse than STL! In fact, it’s hard to tell them apart in that regard. To experience true southern Alabama, you’ll need to visit Elberta, Fairhope, Bayou LB, Lillian, even Charlet. There, life is easy. No one cares if you’re black or white, gay or straight, rich or poor, educated or illiterate, intelligent or not-so-much. There, in many areas, we don’t lock doors; people leave their keys in the car when they go home at night, and at the local gym, patrons hang their car keys on a board with hooks mounted on the wall by the front door, and men leave their wallets on top of the electric drinking fountain in the corner while they’re working out!. Produce and fruit stands are run on the honor system, and there are no locks on the poor boxes in churches, which are still open 24/7. And if you can’t believe such a place exists, it’s because your experience, vision and expectations have been stained by the soot of the city.
“Provincial” above was used in my post as an adjective. Therefore, your definitions 1 and 2 could not apply. Your definition 3A is what I had in mind when I described you. And If I’m provincial because I “lack urban polish or refinement”, then so be it. I’ll take a modest bungalow on 50 acres of goat farm any day over a high rise loft warehouse overlooking a homeless shelter, where men piss on the sidewalks, crap in the alleys, puke on top of their crap, and then shoot one another over an argument about tennis shoes.
There is an interesting dichotomy about how progressives/reformers/
urbanists view local control. As regards St Louis County, they
wish to do away with small municipalities, and thus weaken local
control. As regards St Louis city, they wish to strengthen neigh-
borhood organizationns and thus increase local control. The
common theme is that average county residents are stupid or
narrow minded or parochial but average city residents are noble
and public regarding (until they move to the county, in which case
they become stupid, etc.)
LOLOLOLOLO!!!!! How True!
County schools essentially have already merged with City schools? That is a pretty strange comment. Care to elaborate?
Well then let me explain myself to you so that it won’t any longer seem strange.
Since the 80’s, there has been a court ordered program that has been busing thousands of St Louis City students to mostly suburban schools. (Most recently, the unaccredited county schools are also becoming feeder schools. And it will be interesting to determine 3 years from now if everyone will have won, or if everyone will have lost…as a result of the “mergers”.
The fact that a small percentage of overall students in Saint Louis City and County public schools participate in the deseg program hardly means that there has been an essential merger between city and county schools. Actually the comment is silly rather than strange.
Well, at least now you have it straight in your mind.
On of the most over looked hurdles to a City/County merger is what JZ touched on in his response to guest…i.e. fire department. There are many, many community boards with people in power. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. One only need look at what fire protection boards pay themselves, who’s on them (and what that means for the employees), how little monitored they are both at a state and local level, how little voters care about them….YET they have the power to raise or lower a person’s taxes. And that’s just the fire departments. Add to that library boards, police, parks, schools, the list is quite endless….Too many people that think they are God and have control over yours and mine pocketbook. And they shall not go quietly into that good night…
Steve, you say “Perception is often based on statistics and demographics. Combining city & county will improve numbers for both. However, poor crime-infested neighborhoods in the city & county will remain unchanged until job prospects improve.” While I agree with both your first (perception) and last (that jobs are critical) statements, I don’t follow the logic of your middle statement, that “combining city & county [numbers] will improve numbers for both.” When you take two or more (sets of) numbers and “combine” them, you either get a higher total number, a mean or an average. I’m assuming that one big thing you’re referring to are the city’s high crime statistics. The ONLY way to lower them, statistically, is to combine the city’s high numbers with the county’s lower numbers, to reduce the overall average. Sure, no longer being at the top of the list will help the city’s “perception”, but how will moving the county from “very safe” to just “safe” help the perceptions of the county?!
Why don’t you poll the county residents?
http://www.stltoday.com/news/opinion/mailbag/letters-to-the-editor/combining-city-and-county-crime-statistics-won-t-benefit-county/article_e5e4abeb-8196-5716-9f11-73bf8d02b56d.html
This letter to the editor sorta says it all, doesn’t it?
Yes, you’re not the only one that can’t see the benefit to the region. Instead, sticking to the tried & true “I’ve got mine, screw everyone else” viewpoint.
Instead of refuting his position, as in actually explaining “the benefit to the region” that he’s “not the only one that can’t see”, all we get is, essentially, “you’re stupid” for holding the opinion!
The benefits have been mentioned numerous times already, no matter what he’ll refuse to get it. He’s quite proud of the fact he had a black person at his wedding but refuses to deal with people east of Hampton. As long as we continue to have a divided region, we’re 2nd national in units of government per capita, we’re not going to improve job projects regionally.
Actually, there were several Black guests. There was one Black minister. The Black guests all had jobs, or were attending university, and/or were raising families in a conventional family setting: mom/dad/kids; mom/mom/kids; dad/dad/kids. There was no fist-fighting at the reception or at the church; no guns were fired. Guess that’s the difference, huh? These blacks acted like human beings. Say or write anything you want to try to paint me as a bigot. The truth is that I KNOW there is a difference between certain southern Blacks and the sort you’ll find typically in NSL.
So let’s focus on how to make consolidation happen. You grew up in OKC, I grew up in Louisville. Both cities “bit the bullet” and consolidated with their surrounding counties in the relatively recent past. How did the leadership there come together and make it happen? What can we learn that we can apply here? What arguments were successful, which ones weren’t? The biggest issue here, at least now, seems to be crime stats. Is that the best argument to focus on? Especially in the county?! Or should we be focus more on ways to reduce taxes for everyone, through efficiency?
OKC and Oklahoma County remain separate. During my childhood OKC was the largest city in the country based on land area. Unlike St. Louis, it was able to annex to increase its tax base.
The biggest issue isn’t crime stats. Some of the biggest issues are population declines (city & county), stagnant job growth (city & county), pensions (city & county), aging infrastructure (city & county), etc
Agree on the underlying issues, but the current hot-button issue is the crime stats. The idea of combining the two was poorly handled and poorly presented to the general public.
I was wrong on OKC – I guess they just can (and do) annex adjacent land fairly easily – http://dougdawg.blogspot.com/2008/12/oklahoma-city-area-history.html . . Which raises a whole ‘nuther question of unintended consequences – If the city rejoined the county, would the city have the ability to annex areas that are now currently in the county?
I’d never advocate changing government structure based on a current hot-button issue, that’s a recipe for disaster. I think the crime stats were simply used as a positive argument for consolidation.
Not sure if state law would permit annexation if part of St. Louis County, but it should be part of the conversation.
And that’s my point – averaging the city’s crime stats with the county’s makes the city’s appear better (a good thing) and makes the county’s appear worse (a bad thing). That’s a positive argument only in the city. Without any larger context (and none was provided), it’s going to be perceived to be a big negative in the county! Politics is about managing the message. It was poorly handled in this case and did nothing to advance the cause.
Here’s the positive for the county/region. Currently St. Louis routinely shows up high on unsafe city lists but if the stats were combined the new entity’s crime stats, while worse than the county alone, wouldn’t be enough to get it on any lists. The unsafe city label affects the entire region negatively, not just the city. Most everyone in the county probably tells friends in other regions they live in St. Louis. You’re the one who always says “perception is reality”, this is a way to change perceptions others have of the St. Louis region.
You’re assuming that anyone outside the region takes our high ranking in crime stats at face value and immediately disqualifies the entire region. Anyone who lives anywhere near an urban area knows that there are high crime and low crime areas. Twenty years ago, Times Square, Bed-Stuy and Harlem were all labelled, correctly, as high crime areas. Aggressive policing lowered the rate, not creative bookkeeping. The New York region continues to grow, as does the St. Louis region. The difference is that the once-scary parts of NYC are now a lot less scary, unlike the scary parts of the city here (and in Detroit). Decay is the cancer that scares investment away, and crime is just one major symptom and root cause. Until we slow and eventually fix the decay, investment is going to focus on the “safer” suburban areas that surround the city and the inner-ring suburbs, and not in the city itself. And people who crunch numbers for a living, to invest and reap profits, are going to look at the validity of every number, not just the headlines. The ones you need to worry about aren’t the numbers crunchers, it’s the average voter, the on who votes based on sound bites, not on serious research.
County population decline is not a major issue, since the
County population has substantially incrreased in the last
three decades. Why? Because the county’s population
moved into St charles County. St Louis city, St Louis
County , St Charles county and the norther part of Jefferson
County are one single urbanized area, and should be
discussed as one single urbanized area/ Taken as a
whole, this urbanized area population has increased each
decade.
Dempster, I am not sure what comment you were responding to and am a bit confused about what point your trying to make. Anyway, Saint Louis Co. lost population last decade and only had small growth rates in the 2% range the three decades prior…. it really doesn’t have that many more people than in 1970. Also, 2012 population estimates show troubling news for Jefferson and Franklin Counties, with very slight growth for the former and actual decline in the latter. The only county that is doing well with population growth in our Metro continues to be St. Chuck’s, which is becoming increasingly disconnected from Saint Louis Co. as many residents are finding amenities on their side of the river that they used to have to cross over for. Our urbanized area is indeed struggling with population growth and the County needs engage in collaboration and smart planning more than ever.
I was actually responding to a comment by Steve that St Louis
County was in decline. My point really was that the St Louis
suburban area, (broadly defined) is not losing population. The
point of this was that the urbanized area was not losing population,
although not gaining much either. I consider St Charles County as
basically an extension of St Louis County and consider St Louis
County as basically an extension of the city of St Louis. Obviously
the urban forms change as times change, mostly an adaption to
the automobile and the consequent possibility of lower density.
But it is still one community, with nearly everyone having some
connections throughout the metropolitan area (a friend in St
Charles, a sibling in South County, a job in north county, a parent
in the city). For too long, since the 1950s I think, there has been
too much of city v county, and now both versus St Charles county)
I think it is time to start thinking of ourselves as one urbanized area.
Thanks, dempster. You are right that we are one community whether we want to believe it or not. Unfortunately we are lagging behind other regions and continuing with expensive sprawl infrastructure in a slow-growth environment will leave us further behind. The fundamental issue for the health of the region moving forward is whether we can do a better job of re-centering ourselves in terms of job and population growth. While not having as strong of benefits as a merger (which won’t happen) City re-entry into the County would be a positive in this respect and I believe it’s possible in due time. Meanwhile, the state and region need to do some heavy lifting on TIF reform, education and public transportation investments, etc. that are sorely needed.
http://www.stltoday.com/news/opinion/editorial-a-statistical-shell-game-in-fake-st-louis/article_8c25e478-81f5-5fa5-9ae9-304b19dad31f.html
More fuel.
In the end, I wonder what this consolidation might do to my homeowner/vehicle insurance rates.
The value of my home? Can’t imagine that my tax dollars will as directly benefit my family as they do now…more socialism in a democratic controlled geographic area. I don’t want to pay NSL residents to remain lazy and home-bound. Nor do I want my tax dollars directed toward subsidizing the numbers of law enforcement personnel required to keep that area of the city “under control”…if that would ever become a possibility.
A challenge to you: Provide a list of 5 tangible city/county benefits that the average City/County Joe might look forward to. Please don’t include “perceived” benefits that only you might appreciate.
Here’s the thing. In the 1870s city voters couldn’t foresee what the future held for them, population was growing rapidly. In 1876 the couldn’t imagine the city needing to expand beyond the city limits. Well, they were totally wrong.
We don’t know what the future holds but we do know there will be circumstances we can’t imagine. We do know the county’s building stock is older, and it’s losing population. Businesses are having trouble getting workers because those who need jobs live so far away.
The problems in the county will continue to snowball, the region needs to act collectively rather than separately.
Steve is right, but he will have a hard time winning converts. The problem is, too many people are like “Tom”, living life from a defensive posture, more concerned about preventing change than embracing it and working out solutions for the common group. We see similar things in the city. Those parts of the city fearing change are the ones in decline. Those embracing it are the ones seeing growth. Strange irony, isn’t it?
Yes it is, they couldn’t see far ahead in 1876 and we have many in the city & county now that’d rather stay on a sinking ship than try something else.
Meanwhile, a billionaire may end up influencing an election to change the city’s right to collect an earnings tax to serve his personal agenda.
Tom, let’s turn this around. What would you say are the top benefits to living in Wildwood or wherever it is in far west St. Louis County where you live? For starters, I’d say boredom, since you apparently get some kind of amusement out of pointing out the failings of the City of St. Louis and its northside black people.
1)In Wildwood, I’m surrounded by residents whose values mirror mine: the Protestant hard work ethic. So we pay our taxes…..so tax dollars can be spent on improving infrastructure, parks, band and orchestra performance venues for our kids, athletic facilities at the local middle schools and high schools, vs dumping more tax dollars into huge vats of fat to pay for busing, embezzled funds from charter schools, major security efforts to maintain some semblance of order in NSL schools……and for what? How many NSL kids have you seen exiting a school bus at 4:00 PM with a book in his hand? My kids are in grade school and are assigned north of 2 hours of homework per night! Even on weekends!
2) Although I’ve chosen not to utilize them, the county public schools still produce students vs just pupils. There is a difference! Why is that? Are all the good teachers in the county? (I think your city teachers would castrate you if you answered “yes”) Well, for starters, parents in the county schools tend to take greater interest in their kids’ welfare, insist on behaviors commonly held to be important, etc. They actually show up at teacher/student conferences (according to a friend of my wife’s, this doesn’t tend to happen much in NSL). I share these values, and I want to live with people who do the same.
3) When I walk out the doors, my perception is that I am less likely to be shot, raped, or murdered than I would be in the city. Which means that fewer policemen need to be hired and my tax dollars can be spent on more beneficial/constructive items. Is it a coincidence that violence is reported every night of the year in NSL and elsewhere in the city?
4) Being separate from the city, my vehicle and homeowner insurance premium rates are less than they’d be if I lived in the city. Why would I want to pay more without benefits?
5) Boredom is not an issue, guest. I am one of two parents who live in this house. We had planned to bring 2 kids into the world, and we got three in the process. With the kids comes the responsibility and privilege of supporting their school and club activities. And we do. The twin boys are starting ice hockey this year. Much family time will be spent there. I unfortunately travel several days each week for business (I work for my money), so when I return there’s plenty to do to catch up. No boredom here, guest. There are stalls to clean daily and horses to groom daily. And when things break, we don’t call “the guy”.
6) I like living on acreage where I can keep a few horses, some goats and whatever other critters my youngest boy likes to drag home. If the city merged with the county, I can’t imagine that I’d be allowed to keep my horses.How could one part of the “new county” be allowed to keep livestock and other parts be allowed only to raise only chickens? I’m certain the ACLU and other advocacy groups would challenge it immediately.
7) As convoluted as County government is, City government is even worse. You’ve got those elected officials who run their fifedums, each making approx. 90K+ per year (Treasurer, Comptroller, Rec. of Deeds, Sheriff, etc). I think there are 6 county offices x 90K=$540K+ per year. Each county office holder has at least one “chief of staff” (patronage selected), making (or stealing) almost as much=another $540K per year. Then add all the patronage jobs that carry individual annual paychecks of at least 40K per year (that’s way too low!). I’m not talking about the ghost employees. I’m talking about the aldermanic friends and family and almost-wives and previously-knocked-up-acquaintances whose names appear on city payrolls week after week. Another $540K per year? (That’s $1.5M+ total—-and probably only a fraction of the annual payroll that is essentially non-productive). Sorry, that’s a lot of baggage….and I’ve mentioned only a spoonful! Add that to the baggage that already exists in the county! That’s too much socialism on this side of the pond for me!
8) The city infrastructure is worn out. What’s it going to cost over the next several years to update it? And if it isn’t updated, what’s it going to cost to continue to maintain it? I don’t want to be a part of that effort. I want to be a part of preserving that which benefits me—MY tax dollars should benefit me. I am not a socialist. I got where I am because I worked for it. No one handed me a penny.
9)And just where do you think these aldermen, committeemen, patronage friends of aldermen, committeemen, mistresses of aldermen and committeemen are going if the city/county merge? Away? Hardly!!!!! Two police chiefs, two fire chiefs, two heads of health departments, two sheriffs, two heads of departments of parks, two mayors, twenty two mayoral assistants…….and on and on….and on…..and on! Where are these guys going? I’ll tell you where! Someone will dig up more desks, clear spaces in the corner, and they’ll plunk their fat asses down……at my expense!
OK, so in a matter of 9 minutes, I’ve given you 9 negatives. Strike 4 of them! Now the challenge! List 5 positives!
The question was to list the benefits of living in Wildwood, and instead we get more diabtribe about the negatives of St. Louis, and, very interestingly, a highly informed diabtribe one would only expect to hear from an insider to city government. Strange. For someone from Alabama, who is fearful to tread “east of Hampton”, you sure are an expert on the workings of city government. I’m starting to think there’s more to this thread than meets the eye.
And back to those “positives” about a life in the woods of far West County…what you’ve listed are pretty basic items: family first, your horses, people that reflect your personal values, and the quality of your kids’ and your neighbors’ kids’ education and work ethic. Those are great things, but again, I would say rather pedestrian. We all expect those things, regardless of our address.
What is about Wildwood, in particular, or say those West County woodlands, are the benefits of living in Wildwood? The museums? The arts? The zoo? The professional sports teams? The restaurants? The interesting neighborhoods? The diversity? The architecture? The history? The music scene? The parks? What?
We in Wildwood have a zoo that we support. It’s located in the city. We have museums that we support. They are located in the city. Our baseball, football teams are also located in the city. (You don’t think for a minute, do you, that city residents alone maintain/support these venues/teams?) They wouldn’t be there without County support/money/attendance!!! You obviously are aware that there’s no shortage of good restaurants in both the city and county. If there’s a city restaurant where i want to eat, I drive there…..as you might do in the county. History? Everything has history. Can’t imagine, though, that I can be “benefited” by historical knowledge. I might be enriched, depending on the historical fact, but I can be as equally enriched by a historical fact living 51 miles from the city as I can living in downtown STL.
When I heard that I was being “sent” to STL, I did a lot of research on the city. I was a good student in school and I learned how to do research, weigh options and study. I followed the Fred Robinson scandal….and the possible Hubbard involvement controversy. My local office is located downtown in the city. Some of those I work with live IN the city. We all do a lot of traveling, spend lots of time in airports, do a lot of talking. Funny what you can learn just be listening, reading and researching. You should probably try it.
Re-read my list. Items 1 through 6 specifically relate to Wildwood benefits. I concede that Items 7, 8 and 9 only inadvertently do, by reference.
Now the ball’s in front of you on your Tee. Are you going to drive it or dub it? Give me 5 tangible county benefits associated with a city merger,
To summarize your list (the benefits of a Wildwood lifestyle):
1) neighbors like you
2) schools you like
3) lower crime
4) lower insurance rates
5) kids’s activities saving you from boredom
6) large acreage
Then you added these things:
You have a zoo, museums, professional sports, fine dining, and “history”.
From what we can gather, cultural amenities without question are vastly more available in the city. What a boring life it would be in the suburbs without all the cultural offerings we provide here in STL city.
See? We need each other! We need your tax dollars and you need our identity!
And many of these institutions are already supported by county residents through the Zoo Museum District taxes – http://www.mzdstl.org/TaxRevenue.html . . – many county residents pay the earnings tax and every county residents pay sales taxes when they entertain themselves inside the city – they’re certainly not getting a free ride. Explain how the county residents will be better off if their governance changes or if their insurance rates and property taxes go up through consolidation?
Where’s the proof county insurance rates & property taxes would go up? Oh right, new crime stats. I can guarantee property insurance in the College Hill neighborhood wouldn’t drop until crime itself actually drops.
Insurance rates won’t change. That’s a red herring. If you live in Wildwood, you’ll still have Wildwood insurance rates. Crime in North City and vacant buildings elsewhere won’t hurt your rates in Wildwood; nothing to fear out there ye villagers of the wood.
Property taxes will be very likely little changed as a result of merger, compared to what they would do regardless. If people think combining public services would not result in cost savings to the average person, then we will just have to agree to disagree.
Regardless, personally, I think this entire discussion is moot. Unless some higher power intervenes in the matter, a merger vote would never be approved at the local level. Everyone knows that.
Corrections: 1) Neighbors who take pride in the property, like me.
2) Schools that educate
3) Much lower crime
4) Kids’ activities don’t save us from boredom. They’re an essential part of our life at this point in our lives. If you are a Cardinal football fan, or a regular at the Muny, or if you frequent the STL Zoo, do you consider your engagement in those activities as “saving you from boredom”? Probably not. They are activities with define your life. I can’t imagine living life without kids and being able to share and enjoy their activities. And I’ll continue to be engaged in my kids’ lives as long as they’re living in my house. But you probably should continue to suggest that we are bored in the county since it obviously makes you feel more leverage.
5) You’re right. You need my tax dollars to support your/my museums and your/my Zoo. And without county tax dollars, the Zoo and museums would either not exist, or they would be of lesser quality. But I don’t need to a city resident to enjoy those activities. As a county resident, I can avail myself any time I feel like it. So, no, I don’t need your “city” identity–because the Zoo and museums don’t belong to your city any more than they belong to my county. You drive to both venues, just as i do.
6) Here’s one for you: Lambert is a city-owned airport, but located in the county. This must drive you wild!
And yes, I do pay city earnings tax because though I live outside the city, I work in the city. And it doesn’t bother me at all. I’m glad to do it.
I beginning to think Tom is possibly a city employee, exempt from the residency requirement. Re. neighbors with pride of ownership, I don’t think Tom has seen a lot of the lovely neighborhoods, “east of Hampton”. Gorgeous places.
And as far as being engaged in kid’s lives, sorry, but Wildwood has no corner on that market. You see that wherever parents love their kids and have the time and resources to support them.
And sorry, Tom, without the City, there’d never have been a STL Zoo, the museums of Forest Park, and most of our regional attractions. They came because this is St. Louis. Not because this is Wildwood.
Well, I’m beginning to think that your logic reminds me of someone whose mind is attached to a curve in a three dimensional space outside of a single plane.
1) I don’t deny that there is some attractive real estate east of Hampton. I’ve never denied it. We drove through several of the areas when we were planning our move to STL: certain areas of Central Westend; certain areas north of Forest Park; certain areas in St. Louis Hill. But they didn’t interest us…given our lifestyle.
2) You suggested that my wife and I fight boredom by supporting our kids and their education (Your argument then starts to follow the curve I mentioned above) Those activities are important pieces of our life. They are hardly activities that we think of to fight boredom. I really can’t remember the last time I was bored–except maybe when I was watching a Rams game on TV.
3) Here you go again on that curve: I didn’t suggest that the Zoo or the museums exist because of Wildwood. Or Clayton. (What a strange curve you are on here!) But I do suggest that our Zoo and museums exist today, as they exist today, because of the revenue that Wildwood, Clayton, Brentwood, Affton, et al , along with those areas of the city where residents pay taxes, provide.
4) I am a structural engineer, work hard at an excellent job and enjoy an excellent salary with excellent benefits, and I work for a private firm that employs civil and structural engineers. We provide professional services for owners, contractors and governmental agencies throughout the US and in Israel, England and certain areas of South America. I really have a great job–one that I worked hard to get!
I have a question to ask you: why would you consider Wildwood boring? What does you city neighborhood offer that you take advantage of on a regular basis that prevents you from getting “bored” (your words)?
Thanks for that question. The list is really quite amazing. Walkability. Neighborhood festivals. Holiday celebrations so wonderful the local news does regular feature stories. Friendly neighbors. Interesting politics. Mature, urban street trees and sidewalks to go with. I could never live in a place like Wildwood. For starters? No alleys. And for someone so loathing of government, it sounds like your job is heavily paid by government contracts….
Unless and until access to local festivals, celebrations and amenities is limited to only local, tax-paying residents, their presence or absence is not really a valid argument for or against consolidation. People live where they choose to live and/or can afford to live. People recreate both inside and outside their communities. Yes, people should financially support their recreational opportunities, but almost everyone patronizes facilities and events (usually only on an occasional basis) that they do not directly support with their property and income taxes – it tends to average out.
Even if my job were heavily subsidized by gov’t contracts, so what? But again you’re wrong….and you’re back on that curvy path you like to ride. Approx. 5 acres of my property are filled with mature oak, london plane, and cedars of Lebanon (I think they’re called).Can’t imagine I’m missin’ out on mature trees. I’ve probably got more in those 5 acres than you have in 8 square miles of your city neighborhood.
We walk all over our property….and we walk down the lane to the next farm, and sometimes down another lane to the corner market. We don’t have “neighborhood festivals” per se, but we do have barrel racing, pie judging and calf-hookin’ “festivals”. We don’t see much of the local news where I live….and I see that as good and bad. Things are often quiet here….and that’s really good. Folks around here don’t talk much about politics. All we know, and without saying it, is that we don’t like welfare, Obama and Obamacare. No sidewalks here–but we have a great riding trail that winds through my property, onto the adjacent property, and then a trail finds its way back to my property. Never know who you’re gonna see riding the trail. And when I was in Philadelphia a month ago, neighbors came by to check up on four nannies that were about to drop. That was nice of them. I’m not trying to see you on Wildwood, and you’re not going to sell me on the city, believe me.
It’s obvious the lifestyle you’re describing is not a “city” living experience. It’s also obvious the lifestyle you’re describing is not attainable to 99% of our society. Most people don’t live on horse farms in the Chesterfields/Wildwoods of the world. From the description, your place is worth upwards of $1 million. So it does make me scratch my head. With so much beauty, luxury, affluence, success, wealth, and privilege surrounding you and your family, what’s the point of hanging around a pro-urban blog knocking the locals? If not boredom, what? Oh that’s right. I remember now. You want to remind us why you don’t want to be part of us. Got it!
Well, there you go again! You’re still on that curvy path. You’re wrong about the property value. But don’t scratch you head too much. You’ll lose your hair. And it isn’t a horse farm. It’s a farm with 5 horses and 47 goats, three dogs, a mini-pony and lots of fun, activity and love. And why are you hanging around this blog? Are you bored? I thought you were exempt from boredom because of the street you live on…..you know, all that city-activity! I don’t view the blog as pro-urban. I view it as urban. Some of you are pro. Some of us are con. Me? I spend lots of time in airports and hotel rooms. I’m in a hotel room now in Sacramento, CA.
You didn’t answer my question: If I build an alley behind my barn, will you come to Wildwood and move into my bunkhouse?
If I installed an alley behind my barn, would you consider moving in to my bunkhouse?
I’m familiar with Wildwood, an acquaintance was on the first city council. I sat in on the design charrette early on for the town center and urban code. Pity such beautiful terrain is being spoiled with large lot development patterns.
Did they adopt a meth clean up law? http://www.kmov.com/news/local/Wildwood-weighs-meth-cleanup-law-216585641.html
My first choice, Steve, is to live far from the St Louis area. In my opinion, it is a has-been city filled with a lazy population run by democrats whose only interests is to further their own agendas and fill their pockets with ill-gotten gains. Case in point: Archibald and Bosley, Jr! I’m a goat farmer! There’s really nothing in or near St. Louis that affords me the privilege of caring for a few livestock animals away from the smog, corruption, crime and slimy politics that I consider to be part of the fabric of ST Louis City. I live in ST Louis because my employer asked me to live here for 4 more years and three months. So, to make the best of a decision that I didn’t want to make but was forced to make, I moved to Wildwood. There, I have no control over “large lot development patterns” and/or “meth cleanup”. I have no particular interest in anything related to large lot development. In 51 months, I’ll be living somewhere else. I’m not a tree hugger, and whether a development occupies huge acreage or a postage-size parcel is not something that I am concerned about. I don’t weep when I see a city structure that sits back from the curb behind a parking lot! I weep when i see an empty building and an empty parking lot! What I do with the development of my property is my business, provided I don’t break laws and ordinances. No preservationists should have jurisdiction over it, either! And I am not a socialist. I believe strongly in a strong work ethic, and I feel that those who have been willing to sacrifice and work hard deserve to be rewarded. Those who haven’t or are unwilling….well, those people deserve what they have and what they’ll eventually get.
I was going to sit this one out and see how long this plays, but now I have to ask Tom…..as a ‘goat farmer’ republican….just how many agricultural subsidies do you get? You do realize that some of the largest agricultural, republican, government suckers live in Ladue, Town & Country, and ….yes, Wildwood. Talk about slimy politics.
…Monsanto. ..ribbit….
And while we’re talking republicans living in woodsy West County and big government subsdies, let’s not forget all those military contractors living off defense budget and foreigh aid contracts to build killing machines to be used by us or others. It’s only a slimy government deal if it’s not your government deal…
Subsidies? Not One Penny! I raise goats because I grew up raising goats, and I’ve developed a knack for it. I enjoy it, and doing so allows us to produce goat cheese. My grandfather’s goat cheese recipe has produced one of the finest blends of goat cheese available in the south. Proceeds from the sale of my special blend cheese (made on a very small scale) covers tuition payments for my three boys who are enrolled in private grade school. I declare the income, and therefore I pay income taxes on it to the Feds. Even without the cheese, though, the boys would be students at their private school. Oh, and by the way, I also pay taxes to support local public schools…but I derive no direct benefit from that contribution. Oh, and I also work in downtown St Louis, and for that privilege I contribute 1% of my salary to your city. Doesn’t seem like I’m “sucking” on much to me, does it to you?
I’m sorry you feel as you do about Wildwood. But your opinion of my city doesn’t interest me…at all! I do, however, welcome and embrace my fellow republican neighbors. I don’t know who or what they like to suck on, but that part of their lives doesn’t interest me either.Based on daily news articles which appear in the Post, St Louis City is known to house its share of residents who tend to lean toward criminal behavior and other unsavory activities, so I wouldn’t be too quick to judge Ladue, T/C and WWd because some of us sometimes may like the suckle on the right teat of our government. There’s no room on the left teat because that’s the one that always occupied by city welfare recipients.
I think “Guest” has concluded that, in his mind, the only major item which distinguishes Wildwood from the City is the presence of alleys. The City has them; Wildwood doesn’t. I offered to build him an alley behind my barn if he’d rent out my bunkhouse. He declined. I’ll offer you the same.
Oh, I’ll take that bait! There’s PLENTY more to distinguish the City from Wildwood. Where do you want to start? How about neighborhood bars?
We have taverns within walking distance of every home in the city. Does Wildwood? Hmmm?
Well, I can’t imagine that you’d consider neighborhood bars a plus. I lived “over” one when I was an undergrad student at the U of Illinois, and I noticed that even those who did not arrive “under the influence” almost always departed “under the influence”. I am not much of a drinker–maybe one glass of scotch a month at most. So I don’t miss the alcohol or those leaving the bars at 1:00 AM driving under the influence. To be honest, though, I really can’t say for sure if there are neighborhood bars in my area.
Got anything else–something a bit more substantial, possibly? (If you keep this line of questioning up, though, I may have to withdraw my offer for the bunkhouse. My wife’s Baptist!
Well, I think we are finally getting somewhere. Tom, your real problem is you don’t drink. Like they say, “St. Louis is a drinking town with a baseball problem”.
So, to assist in the drinking culture, neighborhood taverns, walkable from your home, are a big part of the picture. BY comparison, I wouldn’t want to walk a mile or three down Manchester Road to 109 or whatever to my house after having had a few beers watching baseball with friends.
So next on that list of city pluses: walkability. We can live without a car.
Well, walkability isn’t the issue in Wildwood. We have trails and acres of grassland where you can walk and do the Walt Whitman thing. (Not a bad way to go, either!) The issue is that, after you’ve had a few beers, you may not want to do much walking in or around my property in Wildwood. You see, you might be mistaken for a tail-waggin’ nanny, and when that happens, my Anglo Nubian Rut, who is otherwise a mellow and good natured fellow, sometimes turns into a stinky, obnoxious, sex-crazed, fence climbing goat from hell….probably not something you’d want to experience at midnight after having tipped a few with friends.
Enter your address on “Walkscore” then enter an address “east of Hampton” on “Walkscore”, and see which scores better. I am betting the east of Hampton area wins.
What is “walkscore’?
Ah, I figured it out! I gotta’ admit: you got me there! No question about it. But I’m looking around the webpage for the blank where I can enter “American Quarter Horse” so that I can see which neighborhood scores better in that category.
LOL…..does it half to be a quarter horse?
Well, since you asked and I’m doing nothing but killing time in a hotel room…..The American Quarter Horse of the most popular breed, very adaptable, even tempered, which is why they’re great for kids and inexperienced riders. All three boys are involved in barrel racing, and they each chose an American Quarter horse because the breed is quick on its feet, can provide plenty of speed, lots and lots of power, and it is more than willing to please its rider. And they’re also great horse for trail riding. (Trails are unpaved sidewalks!) Many of the other breeds don’t have the stamina or temperament to do barrel racing.
.
Barrel racing isn’t ‘my thing’ but we do take in the occasional side saddle, appaloosas, paso fino, and fox trotter show. Fox trotters are amazing. Certainly can’t take a horse down Arsenal anymore so you have us city folks there. And a goat….well, we and our dog would love it, the neighbors not so much.
My experience is with the Anglo Nubian breed because they’re great for my needs. Nannies don’t stink, so you could probably get away with raising one in the city. They do get a little noisy at times, especially when they’re coming into season and in the morning when they know they’re going to get oats and grain. The bucks stink only during rutting time, when they piss on their beards and roll in their crap. It makes them desirable.
There’s some humans that do that too!
Here’s another area where St. Louis City has an edge on Wildwood: the City of St. Louis has a much leaner and meaner City Council/Board of Aldermen.
(Per the city’s website) Wildwood has 8 wards, 16 councilmen, and 35,517 citizens. That’s one ward for every 4,439 citizens and one councilman for every 2,219 citizens.
Meanwhile, St. Louis city has 28 wards, 29 aldermen, and about 330,000 citizens. That’s one ward for ever 11,785 citizens and one alderman for every 11,379 citizens.
So if you ask me, it’s Wildwood with the bloated form of government and our city aldermen are the ones that are possibly overworked.
You just educated me. Wildwood’s governmental structure has never before entered my mind. I really have no interest in politics or government or patronage favors. I’ll be in Wildwood for another 4+ years. It can’t go to hell in a handbasket in four years, so I’ll be OK! I just don’t care.
The more you read, the more you learn. Keep reading here and you’ll start to have a whole new perspective on St. Louis. St. Louis is actually quite amazing…wonderful…even fantastic!
It’s one reason Wildwood is such a nice place to live. Imagine Wildwood without St. Louis? There wouldn’t be a Wildwood. There’d be no reason for it to exist! But Wildwood WITH St. Louis? Well, that’s a different story!
Tom…I’ve offered no opinion of Wildwood…at all. So you do not know how “I feel” about it. You were the one to attack the city as full of a “lazy population”, slimy politics and more. I am merely pointing out the hypocrisy in your statements. But it does appear by your many statements that while you may have looked at certain areas of the City, you have based your opinions on snapshots and press clippings. And that’s fine if one had to move ‘spur of the moment’ (i.e. not much time for research)…But didn’t you comment that you’ve been here for 4 or so years? That’s a long time to not learn about the various areas and what makes each one unique. What positives of other areas do you regret, 4 years later, giving up to live out in Wildwood? And where does the wife’s opinion play into this? And of course, none of this takes in background data with which each person, city resident or farmer, has based upon how they were raised and where they’ve spent a majority of their lives.
Bottom line is that unless ALL residents realize that each ‘borough” has a unique identity. Each has positives and negatives. But if all we do is concentrate on the negatives, as this comment thread has taken on, WE, as a region will continue to suffer and consolidation will remain a distant dream.
BTW…I’m curious as to how you can make your goat cheese the same as down ‘south’ since the milk flavornoids are different region by region. For those not science inclined, milk and other products such as wine, beer, cheese, honey, etc take on the flavors of the fields from which they are raised. A field in the South has different plant/pollens profiles than a field in west St. Louis County (or North City it would seem thanks to Mr. KcKee). But that’s for another article…perhaps when Steve takes up Urban Farm production over Urban Living.
“You do realize that some of the largest agricultural, republican, government suckers live in Ladue, Town & Country, and ….yes, Wildwood. Talk about slimy politics.”
I didn’t take the above sentences that you penned to be complimentary of Wildwood. If that’s your take on paying a compliment, forgive me for misinterpreting your intent.
What was my wife’s opinion about the move to Wildwood? She was so against living anywhere close to the city that she threatened to grab the boys and move back to Alabama. She was only half-kidding. The other half of the threat was very real.
You suggested that we don’t get out much….to the city. Well, our life is not in the city. Get out to Wildwood much?
Regrets? None that I can think of. Wish I didn’t have to make the 102 mile commute each day that I’m working in the City…but it’s a small price to pay in exchange for a happy wife and happy kids who love their home, their school and their churches (we’re Cathtics–Catholic and Baptist).
The southern cheese recipe can be produced regardless of the feeder fields. There’ll be slight nuances of different flavors, but not significant. (Maybe like using field eggs vs cage eggs–very slight.) But goats kept for cheese production are not limited to field feed. At least, no in my experience. Grains and oats represent a significant part of their diet. But you’re right, and even locally-purchased grains affect the taste of the cheese. I don’t personally enjoy goat cheese. But I grew up making it. My kids won’t touch it. I’ve given samples of my product to friends in Alabama, and I’ve rec’d no complaints. Those who purchase it locally are satisfied.
Your mentioning your Catholic and Baptist family for some reason made me decide to comment about why I live in the city. I live in the Tower Grove area and wouldn’t want to be anywhere else…. it truly is an amazing neighborhood that marries great beauty and nature with cosmopolitan living. Walking to TGP is almost a daily experience — just went through the IBA grove this morning — and the Botanical Garden is a regular visit…. sometimes we combine the two together for a large walk; last week I just discovered that MBG has a redwood grove — what a discovery! And of course Forest Park is part of our lives…. earlier today I saw a heron in the prairie/wetlands area by Steinberg. Some of us raise backyard chickens, others bees, perhaps a few both. We are lawyers, line workers, college professors, landscapers. Many are seniors who have lived here for decades while others are new arrivals, often rehabbing their homes themselves. We tend to support local restaurants and businesses. We often walk or bike to them. Many have the option to bicycle or take public transportation to work. Our century-old brick beauties would be worth fortunes if in a larger metro. We are black, white, asian, hispanic.
It also is a great place for families. Of course all the attractions are great and walks to good food and treats… “Ice cream parlor or gelatto, what’s your pick?” And kids love international foods when exposed to it. Church and school? Baptists can worship and send their kids to Tower Grove Baptist located right across from the park. I hear the school is good. Catholics can worship at a number of parishes, including St. Pius, which does some amazing work with immigrants and refugees who have followed in the footsteps of millions before them and seek freedom and opportunity in these great United States. Catholic parents (and, anyone really) can send their children to St. Margaret’s of Scotland, a Blue Ribbon School. Shaw parents can send theirs to a top-notch Montessori charter school…. it is awesome to see lots of kids walk and bike to school in an amazingly reborn area. There are many other good private, charter and public magnet schools in the area as well. Not all parents are wealthy and some are poor, but almost all work hard, pay their taxes and are doing the best for their families just as in Wildwood.
Indeed,I have to say the Tower Grove nabes are among the finest in the nation. To put it simply, the area is urbane rather than mundane.
But I don’t begrudge your living in Wildwood; I realize that it is attractive to some, especially if they are from a rural background. (I was raised in a rural area — corn for miles! — but in a small town that resembles Tower Grove more in nature than Wildwood or suburbia… that background is part of the reason for my preference) And both areas have access to high quality parks and nature…. all Greater Saint Louisans should experience Greensfelder, Rockwoods and Babler parks.
Anyway, that is the view from my perch.
It’s always satisfying to find a perch that you’re comfortable sitting on. Tower Grove (I assume you are referring to the two and three-story homes just east of TGP) is, as you described, a beautiful area. I’m also fond of many of the homes located along the north side of Magnolia (???). And the park itself is a jeweled crown. I recall reading, I think, that it is the largest Victorian park in the midwest. (I may be dreaming that I read that–but I think I did.) Our family recently visited the Shaw Garden (the botanical park behind the rock wall). It’s a culturally rich area, beautifully maintained. My wife especially enjoyed it. Don’t know what MBG is, so I cannot comment.
While I could live very comfortably in a house that might be found in the Tower Grove area, I would likely lose my mind being confined to so little space and without the animals that we devote so much of our free time to. I’m afraid my boys might also find that they have too much free time on their hands.
This summer, while my wife was out of town on business, I took the boys to TG Park one early evening (maybe a Monday?) for a band concert–complete with Sousa music, which I am fond of, having attended the U of Illinois, known as the home of Sousa’s favorite band program. I think it was the Compton Heights Band, if I recall, that performed in the park that evening. Enjoyed the evening under the stars. Before the concert, we had dinner at a really great restaurant on the Italian Hill, where we ate some great veal and pasta dishes and toasted ravioli for the first time, which we found to be tasty.. Then after the concert, frozen custard at Ted Drewes. All was good.
MGB is Missouri Botanical Garden a.k.a. Shaw’s Garden. Shaw owned the land that is now both Tower Grove Park and MBG and designed TGP based on parks in his native England. There are three older neighborhoods surrounding the park, each with a unique flavor. Shaw to the north, Tower Grove East and Tower Grove South. Southwest Gardens to the west & northwest is not quite as old but its also quite convenient to The Hill. Flora Place in Shaw and Utah Place in TGS have perhaps the most stately homes. Compton Hts. is close by as well, with even larger homes. No horses that I know of, though, except for the Clydesdale that resides in TGP and services carriage rides.
Couldn’t say it better John….fellow TGer as well. Our diversity in all areas is far beyond any anyone could experience in the states.Sure NYC has diversity, but do they have affordable brick homes? nope. Just a quick example. We truly have it all….except for land. But then again, there are some small homes on large lots over off of Jamison. Just wish we had deer and more foxes and such. We’ve had a heron at our pond, a falcon and hawks as well.
Haven’t seen deer, but I’ve seen fox…. once going up Roger; wasn’t sure if he was planning to go the the coffee shop or the park but he looked like it was just part of his normal routine. A coyote at TGP had a facebook page but hasn’t been seen lately.
I get out to Wildwood as often as I have a need to, and sometimes just to take a Sunday ride. Gave birth to a heifer calf on Easter Sunday morn that I will always remember (it was a fantastic experience) out in Wildwood. I knew Wildwood before it was Wildwood and before the “new” money came into it. Now it’s just too snobby and pretentious overall for my tastes. But if we won it big, I would move out west…not to Wildwood, but beyond. A place with a small lake/pond and friendly neighbors but not too friendly and land. THATs the biggie thing we have in short supply. We’ve outgrown our small city yard. Not all city folk hate the outlanders Tom.
My neighbors on the west probably have more money than God, but they’re anything but snobby. One of my 10 yr old sons fell off his horse while riding in the mud near a lake on their property, and they couldn’t locate my wife or me, and so they loaded him up, covered with sloppy mud, (this was foul-smelling-horse-crap-mixed-with-water-type mud) into their brand new Range Rover and drove my son to the emergency room. The inside of their new car was filthy, and it stunk like a unkempt horse barn.! On the way, they were finally able to contact us. Snobby people don’t do such things. Snobby people call ambulances and let it go at that. I haven’t run into a snobby family since I’ve moved in. Goat farmers with thick Alabama accents have nothing to be pretentious about, either.