Poll, Street Vendors in St. Louis
One of the great things I love about dynamic cities is the diversity of choice when it comes to dining. These cities have a range from affordable street food to cloth napkin fine dining.  Here in St. Louis we’ve got the latter nailed but we are lacking on the former. Street food, in my view, is a prerequisite for achieving the 24/7 downtown our leaders speak about.
Last year around this time I wrote on the same subject. My intro was:
Bustling sidewalks and numerous food vendors are hallmarks of great urban streets. Food vendors sell everything from hot dogs, pretzels, nuts, ice cream, water/soda, kabobs and all sorts of other street food. In St. Louis our laws severely limit food & other street vendors leaving our sidewalks less than lively than they could or should be.
Downtown St. Louis has a limit of 10 vendor permits. Outside of downtown there are only a couple of spots where vending can legally take place.
This week’s poll (upper right of main page) is about street vendors.
So take the poll and use the comments below to share your thoughts on the subject.
Street vendors come in all shapes and sizes. Some form of regulation is certainly necessary but I feel we’ve gone too far by limiting the number of permits to 10 for the central business district. I’ve never seen all 10 out at the same time.
If you agree that downtown and other parts of the city could benefit an increase in the number of street vendors, please take a moment and contact 7th Ward Alderman Phyllis Young. Politely ask her to introduce legislation before the Board of Aldermen to allow more street vendors so that we can begin to activate our sidewalks.
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Steve – I voted that we can’t have too many, but street vendors follow people. As long as street vendors are allowed in StL I don’t think we should particularly do anything to promote them per se.
When I lived in Denver it was so great to walk out the front door of my condo on Sunday afternoons and 30 feet away I would grab a couple hot dogs, chips and a soda for $5 then head back up stairs and watch the Broncos. That was the life.
What was the reason in the first place to limit only 10 venders here in downtown? It would be nice to see this change soon.
New Loft Owner
Steve –
Have really enjoyed your blog since finding it a few weeks ago. Thanks for writing.
About this post: Was just talking about this very issue with one of my friends – WHY IS THERE NO STREET FOOD IN STL?? Thank you for shedding light on the limitations on permits (at least in the CBD). Do you know about limits in other areas/neighborhoods?
Thank you,
Anna
One per block sounds good to me. And that should include areas east of Tucker too. Anywhere! There used to be an old guy with a knife sharpening cart that went all over the city and I believe his old contraption on a cart is now in the Smithsonian Institute. Or am I wrong? Anyway I vote for MORE street vendors. Heck, when I think of Toronto the first thing that pops into my head is the sausage vendors.
I’d say that number needs to be much much higher, more than one a block. It is crazy to limit, these vendors.
I say more vendors on the streets.
Especially in the summer time on the riverfront.
I love the San Francisco Wharf where there are vendors with permits selling all kinds of things besides just food. There is NOTHING on the Riverfront. The flood of ’93 took away a lot.
Also, entertainment. I love hearing a musician play and see a magician, juggler, mime.
They have permits and pay a fee to perform for tips.
I’ve seen stuff like this in smaller cities such as Alexandria, Virgina.
Come on St Louis !!!
There are a couple of pretzel vendors most days on Jamieson, at either Fyler and/or Pernod, outside of downtown.
Reading between the lines, I think you’ve identified the real problem – the city limits “the number of permits to 10 for the central business district. I’ve never seen all 10 out at the same time.” The simplistic answer is we need more. The more-nuanced answer is that the ones currently permitted need to be out there on a regular basis, and, by extension, they need to do a better job of meeting customer demand – my guess is that they’re not out simply because they’re not making money. Either there aren’t enough customers (simple supply and demand/shrinking employment) or what they’re trying to sell, the public isn’t interested in buying. In either case, the better, short-term answer, would be a use-it-or-lose-it provision – if you’re not out there x hours a day, y days a week, z weeks a year, you lose your permit AND you can’t reapply for 3 or 5 years!
Yes, I agree, it’s a chicken-or-egg challenge – it takes time to grow any business, and downtown office workers and residents (the primary customers) are, like everywhere else, creatures of habit. To succeed, with a cart or a storefront, takes doing the basics well – the right product, good prices, great service and yes, predictability. Limiting the number of permits, in itself, is not bad, IF it helps grow a vibrant city. What I’m reading and seeing is that we “need” more pushcart vendors. The real question is whether or not potential vendors are being turned away by the city in large numbers? I would guess not (or we’d be hearing more about it) – these guys and gals are the ultimate small business person – if they’re not profitable, they won’t be out there, even if the city raises the number of permits by tenfold!
And, FYI – the basic Denver regulations: http://www.denvergov.org/PeddlerRegulations/tabid/379835/Default.aspx
In addition, the 16th Street Mall has additional regulations: “There are an average of 30 vendors on the 16th Street Mall selling a variety of merchandise and food products. Vending sites are located throughout all 16 blocks of the Mall. Specific sites are issued in order to diversify the vendor’s businesses on the Mall, while taking into consideration the continued success of current restaurants and retail shops. Vendors have a specific set of rules and regulations determined by the BID and the City & County of Denver that they must follow in order to operate their carts on the Mall. Download the Policies & Procedures for operation on the Mall. Download the Cart Design Standards.”
A related issue that the city needs to address is the lack of street performers. I believe they are banned, but I’m not 100% sure. Street performers provide free entertainment and allow the performers to start a small business.
Kinda surprised to see you embracing the free market when it comes to street vendors . . . with retailers of all kinds struggling downtown (in their fixed storefronts), I’m surprised you’re favoring the commercial anarchy that unlimited street vending would bring. I agree, great cities are messy. But I think we’re walking a fine line here, where we could easily trade more vacant storefront for more carts – why pay $2000 or $5000 a month in rent when you can pay a one-time fee to just buy a cart?! We don’t seem to be Manhattan, where both storferonts AND street vendors can make a living . . .
I couldn’t agree more with your post Steve. I never actually thought of that but you’re right, what better way to get more people walking on the streests than to have food/magazines, etc. Just like NYC.
You should run again for an alderman spot!
Think of downtown as a giant, amorphous shopping mall. It has a built-in customer base (x number of workers, residents and visitors). There is a finite amount of dollars that can be spent, either downtown or elsewhere, later. Competition is good, as long as the playing field is somewhat level. Customers vote with their feet and their wallets. So, to make it simple, take the Hardee’s at 6th & Chestnut. They’ve stuck with downtown and have a probably at least $1 million invested in that location, between tenant improvements and rent. Is it in the city’s best interest to allow Joe’s Hot Dog Cart or Pedro’s Mobile Taco Truck to be parked outside their front door or down the block, selling fast food in direct competition to an established business? Sure, in the short run, the customer benefits from the competition. But, in the long run, when the fixed location is no longer profitable (because of higher rent/overhead), Hardee’s WILL walk away, much like how McDonald’s and Burger King walked away from the area around Grand & Chippewa. Bottom line – be careful what you ask for! (And it doesn’t matter if it’s Hardee’s or Tofu City – it’s a business that’s successful, meeting the needs of a certain slice of the population AND paying some hefty taxes and rent.)
Agreed, downtown needs more people. But the reality is that street vendors have some distinct financial advantages over their brick-and-mortar competitors 30′ away. We all know that restaurants, especially small, local ones, are really tough to pull off financially. And in today’s economy, the last thing any new or established business needs is a new, essentially publicly-subsidized, competitor outside its front door. Still, I stand by my original thoughts – if there were a real demand for ten (or more) carts, all ten currently-permitted carts would be out there every day, raking in some serious profits. And if there were real demand for vegetarian hot dogs, someone would already be out there doing it (or have tried and given up)! Sounds like the real first step is to convince the existing downtowners to spend more money in the few carts that are out there now . . .
Several years ago shortly after moving to St. Louis I was without a car for a brief period of time. I was living in the West End and used MetroLink as part of my commute to Clayton where I work. My first day commuting I was struck by the lack of street vending along the way to work especially at the MetroLink stops. It seemed like there was so much opportunity for sales what with the only immediate option available to public transit users being the sometimes empty, sometimes non-functioning soda machines. In that sense it seems like the city is less than friendly to tourists as well.
JZ – there is a hot dog cart a block from the Hardee’s, right on the corner of 6th and Olive. I walk by it daily. When the weather is nice, the cartman has a line of customers. Meanwhile, the Hardee’s is usually busy at the same time.
Within a block of the cart vendor, there are at least a dozen restaurants, maybe 20. Where do I get my lunches? At the restaurants, never from the wiener stand.
I don’t like standing out in the wind or sun, and besides, the guy plays his music way too loud for my taste. But even more importantly, every day he splits his brats and salsiccias from cooking them too fast on direct heat (unforgivable sin for a sausage afficiando). I don’t like my sausage charred, with the juices flowing into the flames.
If there were more street vendors downtown I would be less likely to bring my lunch to work. As it is there are very few cheap and quick lunch options and I get tired of them quickly.
If there were a street vendor at the Old Post Office Plaza I might actually sit there sometime to eat my food.
I have more problem with the fact that he leaves his greasy oversplatter stains on the public sidewalk, like that residual was a part of the permit or something, but I’d rather know I live in a city that can at least feature what other cities with vivid street life have bountifully.
sometimes you just want a quick $1.50 cheese dog and scuttle back to the desk, and sometimes you want a burger and sometimes you want to sit down and be served something more proper.
this is an apples and oranges argument regarding competition.
where I live it was mostly hot dogs on the street for many years but recently it’s been expanded to great success and variety, Korean, Mexican, Middle Eastern, “smart” food, etc.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/artsandliving/foodanddining/features/2007/new-vendors-082907/graphic.html
nearby delis don’t seem to be hurting.
It sounds like we all agree that more carts would be a good thing. Where we apparently disagree is how to achieve it. What I find to be most intriguing is that when I’ve advocated for letting the market take its course on other issues (smoking bans, historic districts, generic Walgreens being plopped down in existing urban neighborhoods, etc., etc.), I’ve been shot down/severely challenged, yet when I advocate for some controls over peddlars, carts and street vendors, primarily to protect existing urban businesses, then, hey, we gotta “let the free market work”! It’s inconsistencies like this that undermine any credibility that urbanistas have in the larger community – most businesses and many citizens want predictability, and if the message gets confused, the goal of a more-urban and urbane community will continue to be diluted . . .
Other than a couple of laws about the size of the cart, etc I see no point for any laws beyond that. Why exactly do I need to ask the government permission to sell? These laws about the number of permits are usually on the books to protect existing businesses and no other reason.
I am a street vendor here in the city and I can tell you that it is a rough ride. It is not an easy process and the system that the city does have is not interested promoting in “street life”. As with all business, the city provides endless hoops, permits, licenses, etc. Your profit rides on the slimmest of margins and everyone has their hand out for piece. Many of the locations that would make it profitable are off limits. These restrictions are in place to protect other businesses- ie. Busch Stadium, Convention Center, festivals, etc. The main reason you don’t see many vendors out is because ‘in the best of situations’ it is hard to make a profit on street vending here with the amount of current foot traffic, then add on on the public fees, insurance, private fees, permits, licensing, blind bidding wars against other vendors for city permits for specific locations and the waiting hours at one city office, then another, and another, factor in crazy weather, and you have many reasons not to fire up the grill, but go back to your day job to subsidize your weekend investment. As a vendor who prides myself in my small business on wheels which promotes locally made goods I am here to tell you that St Louis is not a city that supports vendors either in terms of government or customership.
scott. I'm looking for a hot dog cart to provide dogs for a company party. Can you help? Please let me know how I can contact you.
On Cherokee Street we’re planning on having street vendors and vending machines that distribute local art and literature, as well as brochures and community activism notices. Lots of really awesome things are happening on Cherokee Street, you guys ought to check it out sometime.
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whats wrong with St.Louis ? I have lived here my whole life and its no jobs as it is and there are no vendor opportunities in St.Louis. How can there only be 10 permits for this huge downtown this is unreal an unfair. I dont understand this and im ready to protest
The St. Louis County Parks charges 15% sales tax and require a 2 million dollar per occurance liability policy to sell to tax payers in the park and then excludes the vendor from special events. Not much incentive to sell in the St. Louis County Parks.