A Realistic Look at the Question of Progress in the Area of Race Relations
Over fifty years ago, in April 1957, Dr. Martin Luther King delivered a speech to over 8,000 people at St. Louis’ Kiel Auditorium during a freedom rally. Given our state of race relations half a century later, I think looking back at part of his words on this day makes sense. Here are some excerpts from A Realistic Look at the Question of Progress in the Area of Race Relations, created from an audio recording and the papers of Dr. King:
I want to try to grapple with a question that continually comes to me. And it is a question on the lips of men and women all over this nation. People all over are wondering about the question of progress in race relations. And they are asking, “Are we really making any progress?” I want to try to answer that question. And if I would use a subject for what I plan to say this evening, I would use a rather lengthy subject: “A Realistic Look at the Question of Progress in the Area of Race Relations.”
There are three basic attitudes that one can take toward the question of progress in the area of race relations. And the first attitude that can be taken is that of extreme optimism. Now the extreme optimist would argue that we have come a long, long way in the area of race relations. He would point proudly to the marvelous strides that have been made in the area of civil rights over the last few decades. From this he would conclude that the problem is just about solved, and that we can sit comfortably by the wayside and wait on the coming of the inevitable.
The second attitude that one can take toward the question of progress in the area of race relations is that of extreme pessimism. The extreme pessimist would argue that we have made only minor strides in the area of race relations. He would argue that the rhythmic beat of the deep rumblings of discontent that we hear from the Southland today is indicative of the fact that we have created more problems than we have solved. He would say that we are retrogressing instead of progressing. He might even turn to the realms of an orthodox theology and argue that hovering over every man is the tragic taint of original sin and that at bottom human nature cannot be changed. He might even turn to the realms of modern psychology and seek to show the determinative effects of habit structures and the inflexibility of certain attitudes that once become molded in one’s being. (Yes) From all of this he would conclude that there can be no progress in the area of race relations. (All right, All right)
Now you will notice that the extreme optimist and the extreme pessimist have at least one thing in common: they both agree that we must sit down and do nothing in the area of race relations. (Yes) The extreme optimist says do nothing because integration is inevitable. The extreme pessimist says do nothing because integration is impossible. But there is a third position, there is another attitude that can be taken, and it is what I would like to call the realistic position. The realist in the area of race relations seeks to reconcile the truths of two opposites while avoiding the extremes of both. (Yeah) So the realist would agree with the optimist that we have come a long, long way. But, he would go on to balance that by agreeing with the pessimist that we have a long, long way to go. (Amen) [applause] And it is this basic theme that I would like to set forth this evening. We have come a long, long way but we have a long, long way to go. (Amen) [applause]
Now let us notice first that we’ve come a long, long way. You will remember that it was in the year of 1619 that the Negro slaves first landed on the shores of this nation. They were brought here from the shores of Africa. Unlike the Pilgrim fathers who landed at Plymouth a year later, they were brought here against their wills. Throughout slavery the Negro was treated in a very inhuman fashion. He was a thing to be used, not a person to be respected. (Yeah, That’s Right) He was merely [applause], he was merely a depersonalized cog in a vast plantation machine. (Yeah) The famous Dred Scott decision of 1857 well illustrates the status of the Negro during slavery. For it was in this decision that the Supreme Court of the nation said, in substance, that the Negro is not a citizen of this nation. He is merely property subject to the dictates of his owner. Living under these conditions many Negroes lost faith in themselves. Many came to feel that perhaps they were less than human. So long as the Negro accepted this place assigned to him, so long as the Negro patiently accepted injustice and exploitation, a sort of racial peace was maintained.
King goes through history and how, following slavery, an optimist would have advocated sitting back and waiting. King then reminds us of the lynchings and other issues that followed in the beginning of the 20th Century. He continually repeats that although much progress has been made, much more remains to be done. A long way indeed.
I’m about through now, but there is a warning signal, a signal that must forever stand before us. (Yes) I’ve tried to say that we’ve come a long, long way, and we have a long, long way to go. I’ve tried to suggest some of the things that we must do in order to go the additional miles ahead. My friends, I cannot leave you without saying that as we move on let us be sure that our methods are thoroughly moral and Christian. (Go ahead, Yes) [applause] This is one of the basic things confronting our nation. No matter what we suffer. I know it’s really hard when we think of the tragic midnight of injustice and oppression that we’ve had to live under so many years, but let us not become bitter. Let us never indulge in hate campaigns, for we can’t solve the problem like that. (No) Somebody must have sense in this world. (Amen, Yes) And to hate for hate does nothing but intensify the existence of hate in the universe. (Amen) We must not use violence. Maybe sometimes we will have to be the victims of violence, but never let us be the perpetrators of violence. (Amen) For if we succumb to the temptation of using violence in our struggle, unborn generations would be the recipients of a long and desolate night of bitterness (Yes), and our chief legacy to the future will be an endless rain of meaningless chaos. (Go ahead) We must not use violence. (All right) Oh, sometimes as we struggle it will be necessary to boycott. But let us remember as we boycott that a boycott is never an end. A boycott is merely means to awaken within the oppressor the sense of shame and to let him know that we don’t like how we are being treated; but the end my friends is reconciliation, the end is redemption. (Yeah) Our aim must never be to defeat the white man or to humiliate him. Our aim must be to win his friendship and his understanding. (Go ahead) [applause] [words inaudible]
Oh, no matter how much we are mistreated there is still a voice crying through the vistas of time saying, “Love your enemy. (Yeah) Bless them that curse you, pray for them that despitefully use you.” (Yes) [applause] And then, and only then, can you matriculate into the university of eternal life. (Yes) We must get a hold of this simple principle of love and let it be our guiding principle throughout our struggle.
This means that through this period we will need leaders on every hand and at every scene who will stress this. (Yes) This is a time for sound and sane leadership. (Yes sir) This is no period for rabble-rousers, whether the rabble-rouser be white or Negro. (That’s right) We are grappling and dealing with the most complex, one of the most weighty and complex social issues of the centuries. (Go ahead, Go ahead, sir) This problem is deeply rooted in the emotions, deeply rooted in the customs and traditions of the South. And we can’t solve the problem with misguided emotionalism. (No, no, no) This is a period for sane, sound, rational leadership. (Yes) We must be calm and yet positive at the same time. We must avoid the extremes of hot-headedness and Uncle-Tomism. (Yes, That’s right) Oh, this is a period for leaders. Leaders not in love with publicity, but in love with humanity. (Yes sir) Leaders not in love with money, but in love with justice. (Yes) Leaders who can subject their particular egos to the greatness of the cause. (Yes, yes, yes)
While many injustices still exist in the world it is important to remember that race relations have progressed in the last 50 years, but we do have a long way to go. Today in St. Louis we have considerable work to be done. The population in St. Louis is less than half what it was when King gave his speech here in 1957 and for a variety of reasons a large section of our city is written off as being too poor and too black. Attracting middle class blacks to these area, much less other races, is a challenge.
The big issue in the news of late is the issue over the demotion, and then resignation, of Fire Chief Sherman George. Mayor Slay has been vilified in the news over this issue and a recall has started. For those who are not regular readers let me make this clear — I am not a fan of Mayor Slay or his administration. I look forward to the day when I can put the “former” before Mayor Slay. That having been said, I don’t think Slay wanted to get rid of Sherman George because he is black. George was appointed by a prior Mayor. Slay wanted to get rid of George because George wasn’t a yes man to the Mayor. I’m not going to delve into whether or not George failed his duties by not promoting within the ranks or if he was within his power to pass on the score based promotions. George could have been of any race (including white) and as long as he wasn’t promoting Slay’s boys, allowing Slay to increase his power base, then there was going to be a stand off. This latest issue has much to do with the next race for Mayor, just over a year away in 2009. You see, the next Mayor will have considerable influence in the drawing of local ward boundaries.
Discrimination is more subtle than it was decades ago, but it does still exist. However, this also means that racism can be read into things which are not really about race. In politics, at all levels, power is usually the root of the problem — not racism. Local leaders, be they black or white, use the same tactics of playing to supporters and working to consolidate their power structure. Those with more supporters and/or more money, wins. Opposition gets screwed. Players switch sides when a political ship is sinking. Black politicians play this game as well as any white politician. This is not to say that all politicians, black or white, play games. I’m just saying that the nature of political power structures is open to all races. Anyone who thinks that all the white aldermen have the same political interests would be foolish. Ditto for black aldermen. Power struggles exist within races at all political levels. Power and money is the key. Or is it money and then power?
Race is often used, I’m afraid to say, when it would play well with the media and constituents. The same can be said for immigration. This political tactic unfortunately makes race & immigration relations worse, not better. Local leaders, black and white, seem to look out for their own self interests and not of the greater city and of the common citizen. We need leaders like Dr. King who would be able to cut through all the political grand standing and clearly show us the path to be taken. Locally, I don’t see that leadership emerging. Like half a century ago, however, “this is a period for sane, sound, rational leadership.”
Racism is a tough issue to “solve” simply because different people’s perceptions of the “problem” vary so greatly. I’m a white male. I chafe at the assumption that all past wrongs can be made right by giving special advantages to groups of people who have been discriminated against in the past, but I also realize that not doing so perpetuates the status quo. As a society and a community, we walk a fine line between maintaining a system that is inherently “discriminatory” with trying to create new systems that are less “discriminatory” to all.
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The St. Louis Fire Department appears to be a festering microcosm of all these dynamics. The white side doesn’t see a lot wrong nor much need to change anything. The black side will accept nothing less than one-for-one “parity”, even if the minorities are less qualified/don’t test as well against the established criteria. Personally, I support affirmative action when it comes to hiring, but I want to see the best people promoted, be they black, white, hispanic, bosnian, male, female, gay or straight, once they’re “in the system”. I assume, probably a bit naively, that once you’re in the department, that training opportunities are available on an equitable basis to all fire fighters, and that understanding and passing these specialized courses is critical to testing well and being promoted. What I suspect is that the unintended consequence of affirmative action is that members of protected groups who are hired are less able to compete academically with members of non-protected groups (who faced more-rigorous screening when they were first hired), and thus end up further down on any promotion list. I don’t have the “answer” to this, other than to focus on bigger-picture issues, like improving the quality of the St. Louis Public School system and waiting for the current infatuation with “ghetto culture” to fade among the teens and twenty-somethings of all races (see yesterday’s column in the P-D by David Nicklaus: An icon means business in attacking ‘ghetto culture’).
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Is it “fair” that you’re less able to compete, either because of genetics or environment? Maybe. But it’s also not fair to limit the opportunities of those people who do work hard and test well. As an outsider, I want the most bang for my tax buck, a department staffed by talented and motivated people, of all ethnicities and persuasions, not a less-well-qualified and poorer-performing department that meets some set of abritrary quotas. And, for better or worse, that is much more the norm in the private sector than in the public sector.
I don’t know why race continues to be such an issue for STL. The funny thing is that I think there are very few racists in our city, yet everybody both black and white, walks around on egg shells. It doesn’t help that we have publications like the “St. Louis American” crying racism over every little thing, and it doesn’t help that some whites irrationally get scared of every person with dark skin. When are we going to wake up (both black and white) and realize we are all the same….just people trying to get through the day with as little hassle as possible? ……………………………STL seems to beat itself up over race issues so much more than other cities with a similiar history. Why don’t we stop rehashing the same old arguments and look to the future?
There are many racists in this city–they’re just not all overt, n-word using racists (although you can find those all over around here, too). There is still subvert racism, and the idea of white privilege is alive and well here. If there wasn’t, our city schools would be in much better shape, more white people would hang out and live north of Olive, and I wouldn’t hear the n-word or have people stare at my friends when I bring black friends to South City dive bars.
I’m white, and nothing bothers me more than people denying that white privilege exists or that the effects of slavery, segregation, and discrimination don’t still have power over people’s lives. A simple analysis of American history or African history can tell you that. White people don’t want to acknowledge this because they don’t want to think that they had any special help getting to where they are in life, but we live in a world designed to celebrate and promote middle-to-upper class white people. St Louis is absolutely a powerful example of that.
That being said, I teach at a very diverse high school, and for the most part, our kids are a shining example of how communication, understanding, and acceptance can facilitate harmony. There is hope!
I live in Ferguson, one of the few peacefully integrated areas of St. Louis. I have black friends, black neighbors, black tenants in some of my homes. According to the census, our area is 50-50, or close to it. We shop in the same stores, play in the same parks, and we all pretty much get along.
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But all is not well. We do have problems with crime here, and the problem is black. That isn’t just a perception, it’s reality. I bought a police scanner last week, and almost 100% of the crime is perpetrated by blacks. Purse snatching at a laundromat. Carjacking. Pizza delivery guy pistol whipped and robbed. Teens walking through an apartment complex throwing rocks. It is endless, and it is black. Since I live in what appears to be a peaceful place, I always wondered what all those cops did all day. Now I know.
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To clarify, most of this crime isn’t in Ferguson, it is in the large swatch of unincorporated St. Louis county to our east, extending from north of Jennings to the northeastern border of Florissant. It has made me a great fan of something I once disliked, our fragmented system of local governments in St. Louis county. I shudder to think that the government entity which manages Castle Point would suddenly become the protector and regulator of MY neighborhood. But I digress.
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What is amazing to me is how racism has been turned on its head. For centuries, many in our nation – and to be fair, most of the world – lived by the assumption that black was bad, white was good. It would seem best that we would judge people as individuals, and that color would be without a place in that judgment. Yes today, those who say as Mr. Zavist did, that they do not want a “less-well-qualified and poorer-performing department that meets some set of abritrary quotas” are accused of racism by many on the left and in the civil rights industry. Those who criticize violent and sexually degrading rap music are accused of racism, or at least, racially motivated cultural insensitivity. Those who don’t want to see people walking around with their underwear showing are accused of racism.
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There is no end to this stupidity. And it all stands in the way of the way things ought to be. Last year, a black family bought a house down the street from me. They are a nice, professional couple. They drive better cars than we do, they take good care of their lawn and house. We wave at each other when I walk by. Nobody on our street has sold their house and moved to St. Peters. Nobody has burned a cross on his lawn.
bring back MLK. That guy had more leadership in his pinky finger than most of our leaders today. I don’t know if Hilary Clinton’s LBJ comment was a mistake or a calculated move, but boy was she wrong. I hope people reflect on the immense courage it took to lead the way he did… for what was right against popular sentiment and violence. His message is truely the right message for every age. My “enemies” are so insignificant compared to his… and I have a hard time loving them. I often wonder what could have been done had he not been murdered.
Dole, you need to look no further than this from the P-D website:
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“Protesters Disrupt Slay’s MLK Speech
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Mayor Francis Slay remarks at the city’s Martin Luther King Day ceremony this morning were drowned out by incessant heckling from a group of Slay’s opponents.
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The group members — angry over last year’s ouster of former St. Louis Fire Chief Sherman George — booed Slay for several minutes.
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The protesters stopped only when George, a grand marshal of the Martin Luther King Day parade, stepped in and asked them to stop.
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Slay then to give his remarks, but they were inaudible because of the continued heckling.”
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Simple respect for others’ opinions would go a long way in opening a productive dialogue.
“Oh, this is a period for leaders. Leaders not in love with publicity, but in love with humanity.”
How I wish there was a leader in the black community who wasn’t in love with publicity. As Jesse Jackson said, he is “a tree shaker, not a jelly maker”. Sharpton spends more time in makeup than the pulpit.
All the while America is creating a new permanent underclass from Latin America distinguishable by their race and language. This one doesn’t have ownership papers on arrival, it is undocumented and stays so until we decide to drop-kick it back over the border.
Nick,
While SOME on the left and in the “civil rights (industry?)” are knee-jerk enough to proclaim any type of criticism of urban black youth cultural behavior as racism, it’s equally fair to point out that many on the right simply turn their heads when overt acts of true racism occur right in front of us all, and they simply claim that blacks are playing the race card. While I agree that there is a terrible and growing problem of urban crime being committed by those who revel in black urban youth culture (far and away more blacks than any other race), we have to see that black people who do not approve of this type of behavior are overwhelmed and burdened by association. The crime being committed is being committed by a culture in context and not a race. Why aren’t black kids in Ballwin sagging, substituting the MF word for 3/4 of more appropriate terms in a sentence, and carjacking people? Why aren’t white people in Ferguson blowing themselves up in their garages while attempting to cook methamphetamine or trafficking in illegal fireworks? I suspect that if I lived in Farmington or Pacific and listened to a police scanner, I would hear that 100% of meth lab arrests are of poor white people. Those who revel in poor rural white cultural behavior make those rural whites who do not approve of this type of behavior burdened by association. Some disapprove of young ganstas riding their pants 1/2 way down their backside, and some disapprove of rednecks who proudly wave the flag that represents division and inequality. Nick, I personally disapprove of rednecks proudly waving a flag that represents division and inequality, so in your estimation am I racist?
KBO…I still think there are fewer racists than you think, but many in STL are oddly sensitive to the issue. I’ve lived in four different cities and can tell you that STL is more concerned about race despite not having a bad history of racial violence like some southern cities………….I would like to point out that the primary reason some schools do well and some schools are hell is because in the nicer schools more parents care while in some of the bad schools some parents can be an obstacle to the well being of their children. It has nothing to do with racism when a black mother beats her kids and does drugs in front of them, just like it has nothing to do with racism if a white mother beats her kids and does drugs in front of them………. About your black friends being stared at in south city bars, sorry that sucks; I got stared at like I was from Mars the time I went into a bar near MLK and Kingshighway.
“the problem is black”
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I think in general terms, when white folks see crimes comitted by black people, they see “black crime”, but when they see crimes comitted by white people, they see, “crime”. ie, no connection to race. So, in places / circumstances where there is white crime… we tend to look past it, or at least we focus on the individual criminal. But in cases of “black crime” we focus on the community, and we lump all members of that community together.
Most of the great crime scandals of recent times were perpetrated by white people, and yet, us white folks continue to not be labeled as criminals en masse. Priest molestation scandals: white people / white cover up. Oklahoma City bombing: white guy. Most serial killers: white guys. Most meth labs: run by white people. And there is stuff like Enron, i.e., the theft of millions of dollars from thousands of people… run by white guys. I’m starting to get suspicious of myself at this point… Anyway, the problem isn’t black, the problem, as such, is crime.
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Ummm, how about a little positivity on this particular holiday.
Dole, I think our idea of what constitutes problematic racism are entirely different. The complex problems in the SLPS are not solely, or even mostly, due to lack of parental involvement. That’s a common misconception. You can’t tell me that just because a parent is poor (or black, or whatever) that they don’t want what’s best for their kid. If it were true that the schools themselves weren’t broken, more people who have the means to send their kids to city schools would do so. You can’t blame the parents for the administrative mismanagement of a school district. Even if it was true, would the citizens of the city fix the problem if it wasn’t poor Black/Hispanic/immigrant children who make up the demographics of the school? I really believe that attitudes that fueled white flight decades ago have weaned their way into the culture of the city and created a myth where race has nothing to do with the failures of the SLPS.
I have to admit after watching Mayor Slay speech that he tried to make, I am embrassed to live to St. Louis. Lets all admit, white or black, if we were not doing our job, we too would be let go. I support Mayor Slay and Charles Bryson. I dont see anything that they did wrong. Cheif George was not doing job and had to be let go! And if we want this GREAT city to move forward,
I have to admit after watching Mayor Slay speech that he tried to make today; I am embarrassed to live to St. Louis. Lets all admit, white or black, if we were not doing our job, we too would be let go. I support Mayor Slay and Charles Bryson. I don’t see anything that they did wrong. Chief George was not doing job and had to be let go! And if we want this GREAT city to move forward, THEN WE MUST SUPPORT THOSE DESIONS of our leaders. If you are not happy with is going on in the city. Then you run for Alderperson and Mayor.
Well I read your entire post. I enjoyed the King quote. Something that jumped out at me in the second section was his renouncing of violence. That message was missed the first time. I do not know if, today, someone can repeat that message and get it to sink in. The realists that King talked about at least have made a big leap from living in denial. Now that the black communities have made in roads into politics, government, and business is it a sign of progress that they now can be perpetrators of racism that was only an exclusive right of whites? For some, the only benefit of King day today they’ll see will be fewer motorists commuting to work to clog traffic. I give you credit for at least getting the fact George retired after he was demoted and was never fired. I subscribe to Victor Frankl’s theorem, that there are 2 races of people in the world, the decent and the indecent. Shelving the fluff and getting down to fixes, two big things I think that hold the black community here back are single parenting and what the media seems to portray as young men shooting each other for sport. With your whole power vs money question… Poverty is the root of evil and without money you’d never have the virtue of charity. In politics, I think it’s a question of who benefits?
Obviously, in areas that are 100% white, any crimes are going to be committed by white people. That’s not the point. As I said, I have black friends, neighbors, and clients – and so far as I know, none of them goes around shooting people for sport or selling drugs. But if you live in north county, which is 50-50 racially, you’ll discover that with extremely few exceptions, even the most unsavory looking white people aren’t criminals. You’ll also discover that when you’re driving down the street and happen upon somebody sitting on the curb in handcuffs, it’s always a black person, and almost always a young black male.
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I also personally disapprove of rednecks proudly waving a flag that represents division and inequality. I think such people are idiots at best, bigots at worst. I’ll take it a step further – I don’t even like country music. I just find it annoying. Actually, it might amaze you to hear that I actually enjoy rap, and sometimes even find myself enjoying the immensely talented, though quite degrading and violent, Notorious BIG. Very strange, eh?
Nick,
I did not miss your point at all- what I was saying was that the types of crimes being committed in certain areas of the city (any city, really) are a result of the culture and context, and not race. Black youth living in Ballwin are exremely unlikely to commit the types of urban black youth culture crimes that are being committed in the city, and yes even your Ferguson is adjacent enough to the hotbeds of this type of dangerously out of control urban culture to be affected. I will, however, revise my point slghtly and say that it’s true that blacks are emulating other blacks when commiting gansta crime, and that whites are emulating other whites when cooking meth, but again this is a matter of culture and context and not genetic race. Urban ghetto style crime is widespread and tolerated enough by others who are peers and at risk of falling into that lifestyle, and the crimes committed by rural whites see the same degree of tolerance by peers as it goes with the territory. Either way, we’ve got a way to go to reach the balance of trust between us all to feel totally comfortable and uncheated.
thorny thorny issue.
John: I can’t help but believe it’s more an issue of desperation than emulation. crap job prospects, crap education, what’s easier and more immediate than cooking meth or selling rock? I was amazed the other day when I really stopped and listened to some ad for a job training/associate degree type school and a grad’s testimonial went something to the effect of “this place is different, they really want you to succeed” and it took me a minute to realize it was targeted at the product of an indifferent school system.
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I grew up very close to where Nick K. has described in other comments (Central grade school, Ferguson Junior, McCluer High, lived off Wesley and later near Calverton) and my class was the first to be voluntarily desegregated from K on in the suburbs of STL when Ferg-Flor merged with Berk-Kin and we were always kind of amazed that this was some sort of radical idea. With a few exceptions (of course) all us white kids (I think the ratio was more 60-40 white in those days) didn’t really think of anyone by strict racial terms. Maybe Becky was a snitch, Carlos could be thuggish, Wanda went on to law school at Wash. U. and Ronnel didn’t give a sh($ about classes, but was generally a stand-up guy and that was just who they were. Older grades apparently had issues, but we never saw tension on that level. That’s not to say it was all happy-clappy and there was an undeniable division visually noticeable in the cafeteria, it just wasn’t a big deal. The real tensions that existed were the usual jock/stoner and trash/non-trash (of all races) and everyone else was just kind of peripheral. I did learn early on though that just treating someone as a person and not a preconceived idea buys one a lot of mileage.
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It is interesting as I’ve moved around the country I’ve seen the questions you address repeated in other cities, but seem more geographically acute in St. Louis. Being currently in DC, I’m not trying blow smoke up my a$% ’cause I realize having an institution like Howard U. makes a huge difference and though our public schools are a nightmare of graft, embezzlement and sadly despite some dedicated teachers – incompetence, we have a large and affluent black middle class. KBO: I would agree the parents want what’s best, but not everyone knows how to deliver that. There are tutorial services here that offer to walk the parent through a simple parent-teacher conference – which makes my head shake and wonder.
Race issues are conflated with class issues. Yes, there’s still plenty of bad old-fashioned racism around but there’s plenty of subtle class-based prejudice that isn’t addressed by affirmative-action measures. Thank you, Scott O and John W and others who recognize this.
I grew up in an area of white rural poverty (“beautiful” upstate NY) where the negative stereotypes of “black urban” culture apply to poor whites: lack of education and employment opportunities, welfare dependency, violence, drugs etc. Timothy McVeigh is a “redneck” white male from upstate NY – does that mean upstaters are criminals? or “rednecks” are crazy? or only white males? (No, we didn’t attend the same high school.)
Melanie Harvey
ex-stl, I wasn’t commenting on the CAUSE of the types of crimes being committed by any of the social groups I described in my posts, I was simply illustrating a simple point about WHO is committing the types of crimes described. O B V I O U S L Y, the socioeconomic conditions you list are heavy contributors to the cause of desperation and crime, as well as self-destructive attitudes. The language, lyrics and message of hard gansta rap music is all-too-often a self-fulfilling prophecy for black urban youth, for instance. In the absence of strong parental figures, neighborhood watchers, and an education system that is intolerant of this attitude and behavior and actually challenges kids to learn, these kids have one foot in the world of hope and promise, and the other foot in the world of crime and despair. It’s left up to profoundly immature minds to make the critical choice of which foot to lead. Repopulating the neighborhoods where this epidemic attitude originates with a demographically diverse range of property holders, business patrons and neighborhood watchers is the best chance we have at halting criminal behavior. I believe the underlying tone in Dr. King’s message is just this.
John, I do agree that the stakeholders need to take a more active role in the success of their areas. I also think it’s just too easy to fault pop culture. People are always horrified over what the “kids” today are listening to, granted it is more violent and explicit now and doesn’t extend a very positive message. But then again the largest consumers by far (and disproportionately) are white sub/ex-urb teen males.
So we are agreed then that income, education, and neighborhood conditions contribute to crime? Let’s not blame skin color.
I never said that dark skin caused a person to be a criminal. I don’t know where you are getting that, but it certainly isn’t from what I said. But I strongly disagree that class is the causational factor here. I too spend some years in beautiful upstate New York, and while there were plenty of druggies in every county jail (my mother worked in one of them), they weren’t driving around shooting at each other. In 2000, in St. Lawrence county, New York, with a population of 112,000, there were 3 murders. St. Louis was 51% black, St. Lawrence county was 2.4% black. The income in St. Louis county was somewhat lower, but St. Lawrence county is also well below average – and the heating bills there are a whole lot higher.
Sorry, folks, you can rant all you want about meth labs, but Jefferson County, with a population of 198,000, had only 5 murders. Apparently the meth cookers don’t shoot each other very often, while the bangas seem to make a sport of it.
Nick, the city’s crime data shows that most violent crime occurs in a very few select neighborhoods. All of them are poor with poor educational outcomes and dreadful neighborhood conditions (crumbling infrastructure, abandoned buildings, roaming packs of wild dogs, etc.) Show me a high income, highly educated leafy neighborhood with a violent crime problem, and I think you will have made your point that income level, educational attainment, and neighborhood conditions are not predictors of crime. Otherwise, what is your point?
Nick,
I think a quick read of your posts in this thread will show that what you are pointing out is that is black people, not white people, who are commtting the types of crimes that YOU want to be scrutinized. In your near absolute absolvence of whites in the scrutiny of this type of crime, you seem awfully insistent to point out that it is blacks and not whites. If you don’t believe that class is causational factor, nor do you want anyone here to believe you think that “dark skin caused a person to be criminal”, that what exactly ARE you trying to say? I believe if you read my comments you’ll see that I’m pointing at the fact that culture and context are huge contributors, along with socioeconomic status in the types of crimes being committed in areas of the city. If this is what you are trying to say, than maybe you should just say that. I think we can all agree that problems associated with races of people are because of all other listed factors BUT genetic race. There is still such division in the city and in the nation that we tend to only see the crimes being committed by ‘those others’, and then somewhat ignore what happens ‘by us’. You also seem very intent on differentiating between the severity of crimes (presumably, the meth cooks and addicts hurt no one but themselves and those they influence, and gangsta thugs are killing others), but I would argue that there is a 1:1 relationship with the degree of destitution of their neighborhoods and the occurence of these incidents. I will concede that a disturbing percentage of this violent crime is being committed for recreation, or credibility and respect-seeking young ganstas and not necessity, but this again only illustrates the prevalence in areas where this is the cultural context. Those black kids growing up and living in Ballwin aren’t shooting up the joint, smoking rocks, jacking purses or harassing people on the Metrolink late at night. The crimes of black urban youth culture only reach the Ballwin kids by way of 10 o’clock news.
You are right that black kids in Ballwin aren’t shooting up the joint. In fact, the vast majority of black kids in Ferguson aren’t either. I would even go so far as to say that most black people who live in Castle Point aren’t thugs, though there are certainly far more of them there than in Ballwin or Ferguson.
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There is a reason why most people are more concerned about muggings, burglaries, and carjackings than they are about a bookkeeper embezzling from her employer to pay her casino debts, and the reason is NOT because the former are “black crimes” and the latter is a “white crime.” Rather, it is because people who live in racially mixed areas are thousands of times more likely to be a victim of the former crimes than the latter. Sure, Ken Lay’s crimes were huge. But unless you were an Enron employee, with 100% of your retirement in Enron stock, it had little or no impact on your life. For the millions of Americans who own homes in inner ring suburbs, crime is a daily factor in their life. And even for the “white flight” folks who moved out, the capital loss they experienced on their home value is, to some degree, a result of the crime.
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You keep bringing up class in this discussion, and while it might make you feel good, it isn’t accurate. Lack of money just doesn’t explain the huge amount of crime in the city.
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Saint Francois County, MO – average household income, $31k. Population, 61k. Murders: 0. Robbery: 9. Burglary: 94.
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St. Louis city – average household income, $27k. Population, 332k. Murders: 124. Robbery: 3,224. Burglary: 8,020.
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For those of you who aren’t familiar with St. Francois county, there are plenty of VERY poor people there – rusty old single-wide mobile homes, junk on the lawn, etc.
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Clearly, race alone is not a predictor of crime. But neither is poverty alone a predictor. The point is – and most honest black people will agree – that for whatever reason, the combination of poverty and black urban culture produces a very high rate of crime. Sure, you can be “Will Smith”, live in Chesterfield, and not be affected. But that’s 63017, not 63107.
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And say all you want about the impact of meth cooking on the neighbors, the meth cooks aren’t driving past funeral homes shooting at mourners. Apparently, they aren’t even shooting at the neighbors. This doesn’t make them decent people, but if they aren’t breaking into my house, and they aren’t shooting at me, it’s a lot less serious from my perspective.
I wasn’t singling out class, Nick, as you can read in my posts I asserting that it’s an amalgamation of knowable factors, including class. You yourself have just written this, “clearly, race alone is not a predictor or crime. But neither is poverty alone a predictor.” You then continue, “The point is – and most honest black people will agree – that for whatever reason, the combination of poverty and black urban culture produces a very high rate of crime. Sure you can be “Will Smith”, live in Chesterfield, and not be affected. But that’s 63017, not 63107.” I think these quotes from you amount to a paraphrase of exactly what I have been saying.
John and Nick:
I’ve lived with meth heads (out of economic necessity in CA) – they scared the crap out of me. I’ve also lived in crack hoods and junkie town, really no difference in my book.
Largely people won’t F#$% with you without a grudge or unless you’re an easy mark. I agree with your points about zipcode and agreed. Back in the 80’s we were somewhat fearless about delving into just about anywhere and did indeed notice the connection between an abundance of funeral homes and “bad” neighborhoods. The brutal shooting of a classmates mom in the late 70’s at the donut place near Tiffin and Florissant may have left me blase.
I suspect there’s a ‘”trouble” house on my street – which is fairly affluent – it’s in between not-so-hot neighborhoods, and actually my front yard looks worse than theirs. I discuss the weather with them (and their grandkids are really cool) under the theory that engaging mitigates the issue. And yes if J. was up at my door being weird, I’d call the cops, but almost 8 years now – not a problem.
sorry that post just looked dumb – I really wish we could do proper paragraph breaks here. and the donut place was more towards Cool Valley. if I remember correctly, the event led to greater family tragedy.
This article is particularly poignant considering what just happened in Kirkwood. We need to address these issues in St. Louis, lest we face even more violence and racial conflict.
Isn’t the way to address it to hit it head on? Those on the ‘outside’ of problem areas, looking in, should not fear the what-ifs as they always feel safest doing, and likewise, those on in ‘inside’ of problem areas, looking at those from the ‘outside’ wanting to help in ways they know how, should not always react with suspicion and continue in defiance. My sincere hope is that this election season will bring back around the sort of hope-filled inspiration to begin whatever healing and work that can move St. Louis forward. Some will say I am pollyanna, and that is fine with me.
What happened in Kirkwood was truly tragic. Those who died were all trying to do their best to improve the community they lived in, which makes their deaths all that more tragic. And I agree, perception is reality, especially when it comes to local issues. As an “outsider”, I also can’t judge whether the issues are driven more by racism or poverty. But having worked with people like the shooter over the years, I have seen that level of passion; I haven’t seen until now the blind rage and the need to kill.
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Some observerations. One, the truism that “you can’t beat city hall” seems to be the fundamental issue here. The shooter obviously thought he was treated unfairly. In the end, he was a well-known complainer at city hall, yet it appears the city had made concessions on his fines. Two, the Meacham Park area has been historically poor and African American and I know the city annexed the area relatively recently to have a place to build a shopping center. With annexation, I’m sure came change, including more-strict code enforcement. Historically, however, code enforcement has been reactive, not proactive. One big unanswered question is whether or not the city was “persecuting” a small businessman (or a black man) or if one or more of his neighbors was simply fed up with a construction business operating out of and expanding in a residential neighborhood, and the city was properly responding to legitimate complaints? My experience is that most cities simply want a problem fixed, and that if you think the law is “wrong”, you need to change either the law or your behaviors. Three, my (naive, white) gut feeling is that issues here are driven more by class and poverty and differing perceptions of property rights and what a neighborhood should or should not be, and less by true racism, and that race is/was being used because the abuses of eminent domain weren’t the issue then that it is now. (And once race is introduced into the equation, it’s hard to separate it from the core issues.) Remember, this is just across 44 from the Sunset Hills fiasco, and racism hasn’t been floated there.
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Bigger picture, I have found government here to be more intrusive when it comes to personal property than in Colorado. I find it pretty “big brotherish” to require property inspections every time a residential property is sold or rented to a new tenant. It’s also a little creepy to have neighborhood “stabilization officers” out “inspecting” every property, looking for violations, instead of responding to complaints.
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Finally, and somewhat obliquely, I think we need to have a larger discussion on the whole issue of eminent domain for economic development versus its impact on established residential areas. Yes, I understand the need every government has to create and maintain revenue sources. As I’ve said in the past, the many small communities in St. Louis County are fighting a zero-sum battle when it comes to trying to capture “their” “fair share” of the finite sales tax “pie”. How much that effort in Kirkwood contributed to this tragic series of events will never be fully known. But what if Meacham Park had remained poor but with its sense of community intact? What if Kirkwood’s more-strict property standards had never been imposed? Would it have been easier for everyone to “just get along”? We’ll never know . . .