The return of the Kiel Opera House
Being somewhat of a rarity, not being from around here, I have no warm spot in my heart for the old Kiel Opera House. I have been to the Fox, so I know that that’s a pretty nice facility. The Board of Aldermen has approved a financing package to help reopen the old Kiel. The folks at the Fox aren’t happy, and obviously don’t want any new competition, city-subsidized or not.
I have mixed feelings on the whole issue. My libertarian side questions why the city should be involved in subsidizing one business more than another (as if they should be subsidizing any of them). My architectural side likes seeing the effort being made to save and reuse an older, notable building. And my consumer side likes having more choices, especially in the city. I’d be really interested in seeing what others are thinking, especially those who remember “the old days”!
– Jim Zavist
I’m glad our city is taking a progressive approach to the rehab/reuse of a downtown landmark. If that’s how it needs to be done– fair or unfair– I’ll take it.
The Fox, while visually arresting, has shite acoustics. Probably some of the worst I’ve experienced. The Kiel, the Sheldon (except when those idiots who run the place insist on ruining that hall’s sound with their poorly designed sound system; note to Sheldon: an “acoustically perfect” venue doesn’t need a sound system), even the Off Broadway Club, all have vastly superior sound than the Fox. I value the Fox for it’s unique style of decoration, and it’s elaborate facade, and the various and sundry elements which make up the whole. But as an auditorium for artists who require good acoustics, it surely fails in every instance. Leo Strauss did a tremendous amount of good for this largely ungrateful City, but the Fox is simply not sufficient to the task of creating beautiful music.
I agree that it will be good for Downtown. I agree that the acoustics at the opera house are superior to the Fox. But I hate the use of taxpayer money going to any private development.
It’s like the Schnucks downtown store taking all that corporate welfare to open a store that will hurt City Grocers. Why is our taxpayer money being used to hurt an existing business? The state is even paying to stock the new Schnucks! Is the Schnucks family that desperate?
If the Fox suffers financial difficulties because of this and is on the verge of closing, will taxpayer money be requested to help them stay afloat? If not, why not? Where does it all stop?
It’s about the city’s self respect. Seriously, it can’t keep its municipal opera house open? Reopening the Kiel shows the city’s self-respect has improved to the point where the idea of having a building it once paid for to be built sitting empty is ridiculous.
I applaud the mayor, for once.
Geez. Open the thing. If not, they’ll tear it down and we’ll have another parking lot.
I think the Fox got it’s share of public money when it was struggling in the early 1980s. I think I read somewhere that the Kiel folks weren’t happy about that then. Shoe’s on the other foot now.
I suppose the Kiel and Fox would compete with each other in attracting acts and performers. Is that the reason why Fox is upset. Or are they just making trouble in hopes that the city throws them a bone?
While I am not happy with the public money, at least it is for the arts for a change, in addition the Blues owner seems to know what he is doing, a big plus.
I remember going to the Kiel for dance performances, Alvin Ailey Dance and the New York Ballet among others. Acoustics were not so important for these type of performances (it had to be in the late seventies, I also remember the crawling around the abandoned Fox Theater, the room holding the decorative ceiling is amazing).
In any case the Kiel sits in an isolated spot, although it is close to Metrolink. It is basically a wasteland in all directions except the southern connection to Metro (and nothing else in that direction). Although you do hit Union Station after a few long blocks to the West. North of Kiel used to have activity, but that has been curtailed.
It should become a nice cultural location and if somehow a connection can be made with frequent transit to the rest of downtown, it would be an asset to the developing residential district.
As it stands now, not many people will walk to the opera house. It is not only the distance, which would could be overcome with an entertaining walk, but also how generally bland most of this area is for pedestrians.
It should add to the cultural scene rather than subtract as Fox Theater management indicates. A key is connecting it to the downtown districts to liven up the whole downtown area.
You just have to wonder though what city planners were thinking with so many no walk zones, even in downtown, where walking should be the prime method of travel.
(The Channel Five Building is one of the worse new ones, it is so detached from its surroundings it could easily sit in Sri Lanka and fit in as well.)
The supreme isolation of the Kiel is the same mistake that St. Louis seems to make over and over, making success that much more difficult. Of course many people attend Blues games. That aside it just seems so many self made obstacles are put in place because of a lack of forethought and what must be a poor understanding on how the urban environment works.
I really hope Jim Zavist isn’t a regular contributor to this blog. Even when I don’t agree with Patterson; he at least does a respectable amount of research before he posts.
Also, this particular sentence bodes ill for this blog:
“My libertarian side questions why the city should be involved in subsidizing one business more than another (as if they should be subsidizing any of them).”
The minute I see a post asking for essential city services and mass transit to be privatized and cut from subsidy will be the minute I delete this blog from my bookmarks.
If Patterson is going to endorse such counter-productive nonsense I’d rather look to another source for my Urban news.
On the other side, I like different points of view. I read this blog, with the postings from Steve Patterson and his guest commentators, and all the comments, because I learn a lot by understanding the views from a bunch of different backgrounds. I vote that Steve keeps his blog a venue for lively discussion.
City Grocers is not an adequate “full service” grocery. It hardly has a produce section. I’m not for a subsidy, but it will be nice to have an adequate grocery store downtown.
Angelo – I’ve never advocated for reducing public support for transit. I do question whether another large theater is or should be considered to be an “essential city service”. The city/local taxpayers already support the Muny, the Zoo, the Art Museum, etc., etc. I come into the whole Kiel situation as an outsider – I know it’s there, I know a lot of people have worked a lot of years to save it and to reopen it, and I’m just asking why? It obviously has a lot of history, and it apparently has much better acoustics than the Fox – both are good reasons to make the investment the city is making. But there are also a range of venues out there, both older and newer, that will see more competition when it reopens, including the Fox, the Muny, the Sheldon, Robert’s Orpheum, Verizon Amphitheater, the new theater at Lindenwood University, and the existing theaters at UMSL and McKendree, and most, if not all, don’t receive nearly the same level of direct government support.
Government facilities don’t need to make a profit and they don’t pay property taxes. The fundamental question is whether the Kiel offers something truly unique, something the private sector can’t and/or won’t deliver? Obviously, the cost of fixing up an older structure is substantial – redoing the Moolah Temple and converting it to a movie theater certainly wasn’t cheap. Tearing down the Kiel would definitely be a loss to the architectural vocabulary and the urban fabric of the city, so that alone is a significant argument for saving (i.e. investing public money in) the structure. Bringing people and their discretionary money into the city is also a worthwhile goal. But if the private sector is delivering a product or a service successfully, is it fair for government to compete against them? Should cities support public rec. centers that compete against the YMCA and places like Powerhouse Gym?
This gets into the other part of the whole historic preservation equation – you just can’t save every old building without having a viable use for it. Using the Kiel for theatrical presentations is, duh, the most logical use for it, plus the parking is already there. We’re a region made up of many entities, each trying to capture a bigger piece of the economic pie. As a St. Louis resident, I want to see the city and its facilities succeed, and having productions here would be more convenient for me than having to go outside the city, but like most patrons, I’m going to go where the show is playing. But as a taxpayer, I want to be sure that my “investments” are being made wisely, that they will generate more in revenues than the city puts in, and that they won’t significantly negatively impact our previous investments in other ventures. Like I said, I truly have mixed feelings on this one . . .
Should cities support public rec. centers that compete against the YMCA and places like Powerhouse Gym?
Yes. They already do!
Jimmy Z.
I see you are conflicted about the return of “The return of the Kiel Opera House.†Let me help you out. The government should not be subsidizing any business. Some people like to criticize welfare queens but the biggest welfare queens are rich corporations. If you or me go out and start a business, it is sink or swim. We can not run to big brother for a bail out or to expand. Your architectural side and consumer side can see the building renovated if we truly had free markets and not rigged ones were the government chooses winners and losers.
Jimmy, what do you think of all the streets that are in need of repair and all the vacant buildings or the fact that parts of the city uses rent a cops because they do not feel safe enough because there are not enough police on the streets. All that money that should be going to those things is going to the Kiel Opera House the Cardinals and other welfare queens.
Steve
While to a large extent I agree with Steve, no doubt the biggest welfare queens are also the biggest givers to the political machine.
Government involvement can have good aspects; if the solutions were not colored by corporate giving, universal health care might be in place for example. Certainly the current economic meltdown would not have occurred.
The corruption is widespread and clearly dangerous to America.
Meanwhile the current system is in place; so unless you are going to challenge the the complete political and economic structure the Kiel should be rebuilt, it will outlast everyone reading this blog.
How does the Kiel work with the downtown environment?
Look at the night time activity along Market. Union Station, the Kiel, Blues Hockey, and then near Broadway, it is very disjointed, not friendly to walking, not even a major path at night, Washington Ave is the night path.
A view of Market street 50 to 100 years ago would not return the same result.
Planning incompetence is a governmental function or can be a success in the right situation. The Kiel, Hockey, Metro Station represent a somewhat strong area, (yet it lacks any real small business support), but beyond that the connections to downtown are weak and nonexistent.
The problems are so deep that rebuilding the Kiel is only a small part of the problem alluded to.
Certainly government intervention should be measured. The government is supposed to be the people. If it is not there are other principles that are not working. (As is the case)
Is it a good idea to exclude government from solutions? Probably not unless it only represents the will of a few insiders.
I generally agree with the premise of the wealthy welfare queens, but government should not be destroyed as a result.
Addressing the wealthy welfare queens is another matter.
Is this the type of corruption (even in fire districts) you mean? Just the tip of the iceberg for the Lou region, too bad the PD doesn’t care to reveal what is known as the Lou Concrete Mafia:
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/stlouiscitycounty/story/4447862B495E2935862575D500822B68?OpenDocument
A city without a downtown performing
arts center does not exist. And the
restraint of trade of Kiel Opera House
and MUNY (closed last night with
50 or so beautiful nights remaining..
has just about costs us all our
convention and group travel business.
The convention hotel and the
hotel in failed union station probably
wont make it through the winter.
Kansas City is about to bury us
with their big downtown music
arts and culture, and they are still
to open Kauffman Center for
Performing Arts.
In October Dallas opens its new
Opera House.
Meantime, Schoemehl has persuaded
Slay to ‘load’ the Abrams Bulding
with city departments ..to deprive
Kiel of this much needed component.
And Linda Martinez, Grand Centers’
long time lawyer and now director
of economic development for
the state of Missouri is holding back
historic tax credits, new markets,
and STIMULUS to bring back the
dead and dangerous plaza.
I offered to do one clean deal 12
years ago…and take care of all of this
and the City and Civic Progress said no.
They would not recognize a clean deal
if it hit them in the nose.
Kiel Man
Well, Ed, why don’t you support the numerous burgeoning independent art institutions, businesses, galleries, and neighborhoods spread across the city? Grassroots artistic development helps to motivate the culture to promote, defend, rebuild, and develop bigger projects like the Kiel.
What about the Savvis or whatever it’s called now? Isn’t that a downtown performance center? I saw Prince there. It was cool.
Thank You. Kiel Opera House is not old. Your warm
spot is not important. What is important is that
every city offers a downtown performing arts center
because they must to survive the convention
and group travel wars. St. louis has been debilitated…
stripped of this business without Kiel.
Dallas has just opened a 354 million dollar downtown
performing arts center. Kiel is better, and closer.
For full background and unfortunately a laser focused
prediction of what would happen to downtown…
if they didnt do Kiel “The Mugging of Kiel Opera House”
It's on the web