Lets see – The area has been an entertainment district for decades. I would have a hard time taking someone seriously that bought a condo in an enterainment district then complained about the entertainment.

What do shootings, belligerent drunks, antisocial behavior and lax management have to do with entertainment?

Not much different than buying a home under a runway flight path, next to a rail line, next to a freeway or next to a firehouse – it's gonna be noisier. Plus one's expectations of acceptable noise and behavior levels change as one ages – what's good or OK in your early 20's is different than your late 30's or your early 50's. The fundamental question is whether you or your neighborhood should be the one expected to change? It doesn't matter if it's the loft district, Soulard or Wrigleyville, but it'll be up to the residents in every neighborhood to figure out what that happy middle ground should be . . .

people, based on what i've read it's not about noise. it's about multiple shooting incidents, general belligerent behavior, people breaking into and being snuck into private lobbies and stairwells, smoking where they shouldn't be, destroying private property, etc.

Your rant points out the fundamental issue – everyone has different threshoilds between “acceptable” and “unacceptable”. My wife gets would up every time the yappy little dog next door barks, while, to me, it's just background noise. The loud music and occasional pools of vomit that marked dorm living in college don't seem so amusing when you're 50. And while crimes like shootings, burglary and wanton vandalism are never acceptable, there are limits to what either the police or club owners can really do on both public property or on someone else's private property, like parking lots, short of having a cop stationed every 200'. We want protection and enforcement, but we're not willing to double our taxes to triple our police force. Yes, patrons SHOULD act like guests at all times, and yes, a certain percentage will be a-holes, especially with alcohol involved. Taco Bell may wrap the burrito, but they're not the ones throwing the wrapper on the ground a block away. Short of having unruly patrons arrested, the most a club can do is to eject them. The problem is not the clubs, it's (some of) the patrons they attract. So, yes, if there were no clubs, you likely would have no patrons, and fewer of these problems, but you could also have more problems from arson, vagrancy and drug sales. Samizdat, if there were no park, there would be no soccer games, and likely less traffic, but it sounds like you'd still be stuck with your future organ donor. Urban living can be, and many times is, messy, and includes tradeoffs. And when it comes to personal behavior / interpersonal friction, you either gotta embrace it, work to change it, or concede defeat, and find a “better” environment . . .

Some residents have claimed that Lure employees are letting Lure patrons into parts of the building that do not belong to Lure. That is, indeed, Lure's fault. And up until now Lure's owners have been completely unreceptive to working with residents to address these (or any other) issues.

“Are we all willing to double our taxes to triple our police force?”

No, you just shut down the nuisance club.

“Both 'society' and their peers seem willing to tolerate, or even encourage, a certain level / varying degrees of 'coarse' and 'uncouth' behavior.”

Seems to me that shutting down a nuisance club says “we will not tolerate this behavior.”

So is Lure a tenant with a lease or a resident that owns their space? Either way, it sounds like the real issue is a landlord or HOA issue. A bar apparently is, has been, and will continue to be a legal use for this space. If “Lure employees are letting Lure patrons into parts of the building that do not belong to Lure. . . . And up until now Lure's owners have been completely unreceptive to working with residents to address these (or any other) issues” then this is a civil issue between the affected parties, not something where the police powers of the city should come into play. If need be, have the police arrest the appropriate people for trespassing, but a nightclub, by its very nature, will be attracting loud, obnoxious people who like to smoke into the wee hours of the morning. If the residents don't like that, then moving to Cottleville or Arnold might be the best solution.

You're headed down an interesting path with your opening statement. Are you referring to the hip hop generation/gangsta attitude prevelent among certain segments of society? Or, are you questioning the single-parent, welfare lifestyle that seems to be creating a generation that's never been taught what respect, of themselves and of others, entails? You're right most people don't want to live in the middle of “chaos and societal dysfunction”, even in poorer neighborhoods, but there seems to be a minority of our population who do seem to thrive in such conditions, whether they're drug-dealing black gang members or meth-cooking white hoosiers. Do we need move to the Singaporean model, where every minor infraction is severely punished? Or, can we just get smokers to quit throwing their cigarette butts out of their car windows? Are we simply resigned to a society that is increasingly more “just about me”, where anyone can expect to be as obnoxious as they choose? Bottom line, there aren't enough police to enforce good manners or a minimal amount of consideration of others; it's up to each of us as individuals, to both lead by example and to demand it from others.

Amen, Christian. I once talked to some friends about the drug house across the street from me. They replied sarcastically, “but that's city living, deal with it or move to O'Fallon.” No, it's NOT city life, and I'm sick of all these troublemakers acting out their worst idea of what a city should be. I find JZ71's comments ironic, since I think he lives in the suburbs and designs strip malls; nice lame attempt at playing devil's advocate. We city residents have the right to determine what behavior will occur in our city, and we will not tolerate places like Lure.

Washington Avenue hasn't been an entertainment district for decades; it was originally the center of the city's garment district, before it was largely abandoned. While the raves began moving in a while back, raves a neighborhood do not make. You're still bitter about the smoking ban passing, aren't you?

Actually, I do live in the city (Lindenwood Park area), and the last strip mall I designed was in 2005. I do agree that residents have a right to define their neighborhoods, but also believe that both the right tools need to be used and that neighborhoods in transition / gentrifying present unique challenges when it comes to balancing new and existing uses.

As for Lure, I see two separate issues, unauthorized use of common spaces within the building and idiot patrons outside. The unauthorized use is a civil issue, not much different than illegal parking on private lots – there are remedies outside the city bureacracy. As for idiot patrons, once they're outside, they a) may or may not be from Lure, and b) Lure has no legal control over or responsibility for them – that falls on the Police.

Unfortunately, you can't have it both ways – either you allow music (or alcohol), of any and all kinds, or you allow no music (or alcohol). You can't pick and choose, either the format or the patrons – these are first ammendment and public accomodations issues. While we'd all probably be fine with middle-of-the-road, relatively mellow live entertainment, but the government can't, and shouldn't, be deciding what's PC and what's not.

Diogenes stated: 'Washington Avenue hasn't been an entertainment district for decades'. – SAY WHAT? Where have you been and when is the last time you were down there on a nice summer weekend night? It still is an entertainment area but just a bit more gentrified. You can hit a gallery opening, a dance club, an Irish bar, a nice restaurant and boutique shops and then maybe the City Museum and start all over again. That is an entertainment district! This is a bright spot in our downtown area that was largely grown organically two blocks at a time, be proud of it and don' let ONE bad club send everyone into a panic.

SO by that same logic, if the neighbor in the apartment next to me continually leaves food out drawing roaches and they enter my apartment whose fault is it? If someone leaves rotting fish in their apartment and the smell wafts into my living space who do I complain to? If someone falls asleep with a lit cigarette starting the sprinklers and the water damages my belongings who pays? If every night there is a brawl right outside their establishment with gunfire and beatings, who's at fault? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out cause and effect. Why is it all the numerous other bars on Washington don't seem to have this issue?

I have an idea. Why not blame the actual people who caused the problems by shooting guns, making noise, etc. Then arrest them.

“If the neighbor in the apartment next to me continually leaves food out drawing roaches and they enter my apartment whose fault is it?” Your neighbor, obviously.

“If someone leaves rotting fish in their apartment and the smell wafts into my living space who do I complain to?” Your landlord.

“If someone falls asleep with a lit cigarette starting the sprinklers and the water damages my belongings who pays?” Your renters' insurance.

“If every night there is a brawl right outside their establishment with gunfire and beatings, who's at fault?” The patrons and/or wannabe patrons who have been denied entrance.

“It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out cause and effect. Why is it all the numerous other bars on Washington don't seem to have this issue?” Because they don't attract patrons that are social misfits? Because they don't share common facilities with residential tenants? Because their residential neighbors are less sensitive to / more forgiving of youthful indiscretions and late-night carousing?

Where we seem to have a fundamental disagreement is the concept of personal responsibility. A bar can be too loud, too late, and/or can generate a range of obnoxious smells associated with the kitchen. But a bar, or any other venue, has only limited control over the actions of individual patrons. It doesn't matter if it's Lure, Riverport, the Jones Dome or any of our major universities, many events will attract a certain number of a-holes, and when you mix in alcohol, you have the makings for some truly obnoxious behavior. Do you shut down every venue that has ever had problems? Or do you raise the expectations of what are police department should be doing about individual, illegal behaviors?

You've identified the real downside to mixed-use zoning – coexistence! One reason homogeneous suburbs appeal to so many people are that there are fewer “surprises” and conflicts – if your neighbors think and act just like you, then the chances for “being on a different page” are significantly reduced. Compare that to the attitudes of the patrons of hip-hop nights versus the typical loft dweller – there's little conversation, much less any common ground. Putting the two together pretty much guarantees friction . . .