Poll: Should New LGBT Businesses Locate Within The Grove “Gayborhood” or Elsewhere?
One debate often heard in cities is about gayborhoods, or gay village. Let’s start by defining this term which may be new to many of you, from Wikipedia:
A gay village (also known as a gay neighborhood, gay district) is an urban geographic location with generally recognized boundaries where a large number of lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) people live or frequent. Gay villages often contain a number of gay-oriented establishments, such as gay bars and gay pubs, nightclubs, bathhouses, restaurants, and bookstores.
Such areas may represent a gay-friendly oasis in an otherwise hostile city, or may simply have a high concentration of gay residents and/or businesses. Much as other urbanized groups, some gay men and women have managed to utilize their spaces as a way to reflect gay cultural value and serve the special needs of individuals in relation to society at large.
Typically, today, these neighborhoods can be found in the upscale or trendy parts of town, chosen for aesthetic or historic value, no longer resulting from the sociopolitical ostracization and the constant threat of physical violence from homophobic individuals that originally motivated the homosexual communities to live together for their mutual safety.
However, these neighborhoods are also often found in working-class parts of the city, or in the neglected fringe of a downtown area – communities which may have been upscale historically but became economically depressed and socially disorganized. In these cases, the establishment of a gay community may eventually turn these areas into more expensive neighborhoods, a process known as gentrification – a phenomenon in which gays often play a pioneer role. However, this process does not always work out to the benefit of queer communities, as they often see property values rise so high that they can no longer afford them as high rise condominiums are built and gay bars move out. (Or the only gay establishments that remain are those catering to a more upscale clientele.)
Today’s manifestations of gay “ghettos” bear little resemblance to those of the 1970s.
In St. Louis today the gayborhood is The Grove on Manchester Ave. In the 21+ years I’ve lived in St. Louis the location of the gay village has moved around a bit, although this is the first time in my memory that we’ve had such a concentration in one area. Many feel empowered by such a strong presence and want to continue that direction.
Enter Hamburger Mary’s, a franchise of the small gay-friendly chain that originated in San Francisco.
I’ve heard some who are upset Hamburger Mary’s is on Olive in the Midtown Alley area rather than be grouped with other LGBT-friendly establishments in The Grove. For me the location on Olive is more convenient but I see the other side of the argument too. Â I want to know your thoughts on the subject so this question is the poll this week. The poll is in the right sidebar.
– Steve Patterson
I think this is a great location for Hamburger Mary’s. Â I think by putting it in a more “mainstream”, up-and-coming area is rather smart for a variety of reasons: 1. It’s close to a college campus thus increasing the daily income potential (it won’t necessarily just be a night spot), 2. potential patrons who may be otherwise “intimidated” by a gayborhood would possibly come to eat here, thus increasing their gay comfort and increasing likelihood of visiting the Strip, and 3. the location is pretty convenient. Â But that area is also pretty hit-or-miss for businesses, so I guess we’ll have to see…
I think this is a great location for Hamburger Mary’s. I think by putting it in a more “mainstream”, up-and-coming area is rather smart for a variety of reasons: 1. It’s close to a college campus thus increasing the daily income potential (it won’t necessarily just be a night spot), 2. potential patrons who may be otherwise “intimidated” by a gayborhood would possibly come to eat here, thus increasing their gay comfort and increasing likelihood of visiting the Strip, and 3. the location is pretty convenient. But that area is also pretty hit-or-miss for businesses, so I guess we’ll have to see…
Isn’t this good that we are getting away from segregating groups of minorities? You start out with pockets so you can build an alliance and feel empowered and then hopefully the ignorant will learn they have nothing to fear, and then the businesses blend in with all that surround. I like the idea of breaking down barriers in STL…..about 50 years lagging.
Isn’t this good that we are getting away from segregating groups of minorities? You start out with pockets so you can build an alliance and feel empowered and then hopefully the ignorant will learn they have nothing to fear, and then the businesses blend in with all that surround. I like the idea of breaking down barriers in STL…..about 50 years lagging.
The effort to concentrate in The Grove is fairly recent. LGBT businesses still exist elsewhere such as South Grand, on Euclid in the CWE and in Soulard.
I said it before, I’ll say it again, labels are dangerous. Either we’re going to be an inclusive society or we’re going to continue to be segregated. It doesn’t matter if you or I self-segregate or we label (and distance ourselves from) groups of people that we see as somehow “different”. In Hamburger Mary’s case, I’m seeing more of a marketing gimmic than anything else, much like the Hard Rock Cafe or Buca-di-Beppo.
For most business owners, the only color that really matters is green. If attracting more of one segment of society offsets the losses incurred by discouraging other segments, then go for it, just don’t expect the LBGT community to be any less fickle than the larger community out there. And BTW, how’s the parking? Will they have valet available? Gimmics only go so far . . . .
I said it before, I’ll say it again, labels are dangerous. Either we’re going to be an inclusive society or we’re going to continue to be segregated. It doesn’t matter if you or I self-segregate or we label (and distance ourselves from) groups of people that we see as somehow “different”. In Hamburger Mary’s case, I’m seeing more of a marketing gimmic than anything else, much like the Hard Rock Cafe or Buca-di-Beppo.
For most business owners, the only color that really matters is green. If attracting more of one segment of society offsets the losses incurred by discouraging other segments, then go for it, just don’t expect the LBGT community to be any less fickle than the larger community out there. And BTW, how’s the parking? Will they have valet available? Gimmics only go so far . . . .
The effort to concentrate in The Grove is fairly recent. LGBT businesses still exist elsewhere such as South Grand, on Euclid in the CWE and in Soulard.
Please don’t tell me that this folks on this forum are ready to do away with the “Italian” Hill neighborhood or “Irish” Dogtown neighborhood…Labels that arise out people or individuals expressing their identity is not only a good thing, it’s necessary to competently talk about reality…Those labels that arise out of hateful intentions to disparage others is obviously problematic…
Please don’t tell me that this folks on this forum are ready to do away with the “Italian” Hill neighborhood or “Irish” Dogtown neighborhood…Labels that arise out people or individuals expressing their identity is not only a good thing, it’s necessary to competently talk about reality…Those labels that arise out of hateful intentions to disparage others is obviously problematic…
“labels that arise out of hateful intentions to disparage others is obviously problematic”. Absolutely. The problem is that many labels cut both ways, most obviously in the black / white divide that colors many issues in the St. Louis region. Italians and Irish may self select, as do many Bosnians and Hispanics, and as do white supremicists and black nationalists. We all have our histories and we all have our characteristics that HELP to define each of us. The nuance is the help to part – once you accept that you are solely or primarily “X”, you have created a divide between yourself and the larger society. And whether or not that is “hateful” depends on who you’re talking to or with.
The N word gets tossed around freely among younger members of the black community, but god forbid that a white person use it in civilized conversation. You can open a gay-friendly, black-oriented or smoke-free business and be considered PC. Try doing the opposite and be prepared for significnt blowback. I embrace diversity, but there needs to be a level playing field. if we can’t discriminate equally and “fairly”, the only solution is to move beyond the labels that create the discrimination in the first place. Or, to put it another way, I really don’t care if Steve is gay, disabled or an okie, I only care that he is passionate and articulate about urban design issues in the region. Until a significant portion of the white community here moves beyond equating black with crime and poverty, we’re going to be stuck with vast swaths of our community decaying and dying, based solely on labels and preconceptions.
“labels that arise out of hateful intentions to disparage others is obviously problematic”. Absolutely. The problem is that many labels cut both ways, most obviously in the black / white divide that colors many issues in the St. Louis region. Italians and Irish may self select, as do many Bosnians and Hispanics, and as do white supremicists and black nationalists. We all have our histories and we all have our characteristics that HELP to define each of us. The nuance is the help to part – once you accept that you are solely or primarily “X”, you have created a divide between yourself and the larger society. And whether or not that is “hateful” depends on who you’re talking to or with.Â
The N word gets tossed around freely among younger members of the black community, but god forbid that a white person use it in civilized conversation. You can open a gay-friendly, black-oriented or smoke-free businesses and be considered PC. Try doing the opposite and be prepared for significnt blowback. I embrace diversity, but there needs to be a level playing field. if we can’t discriminate equally and “fairly”, the only solution is to move beyond the labels that create the discrimination in the first place. Or, to put it another way, I really don’t care if Steve is gay, disabled or an okie, I only care that he is passionate and articulate about urban design issues in the region. Until a significant portion of the white community here moves beyond equating black with crime and poverty, we’re going to be stuck with vast swaths of our community decaying and dying.
Chain restaurants are not neighborhood-friendly!
Chain restaurants are not neighborhood-friendly!
Because why? They have money to invest? They’re willing to move into vacant retail space? They’ll be hiring local workers? They have a proven track record? They offer a predicatable product? They’ll attract customers? They have no “soul”? Their profits won’t stay local?
Chain restaurants include everything from Dewey’s to Pizza Hut, Hamburger Mary’s to Burger King, Lion’s Choice to Arby’s, the St. Louis Bread Company to Subway. Some chains are obviously better than others. To say that every chain restaurant is bad is just as disingenuous as saying that every individually-owned establishment is the best thing that could ever happen to any neighborhood corner. There are good owners and bad owners, good managers and bad managers.
If a chain comes to an established neighborhood and plays by the rules, why should they be excluded? Why, in the Delmar Loop, are Chipotle, Noodles & Co. and Snarf’s “bad” and Cheesology and the Gyro House “good”? Explain how having only one location is inherently better than having two, six or a thousand? The customers will ultimately decide whether any one location succeeds or fails, and few will care how many other locations are somewhere else on this planet!
Steve laments chains in one post, yet in the same week welcomes another. I’m sorry sarcasm is hard to detect in cyberspace.
I don’t think he was so much welcoming Hamburger Mary’s so much as he was noting that it is a gay establishment (which happens to be a national chain) that’s not opening in the Gay Village of The Grove.
Somebody should be shot for painting that building pink…along with the one at Sarah(?) and Vandeventer–the bar.
Really, what idiot thinks Pepto-Bismol is a good color to paint a building, much less a brick one?
Somebody should be shot for painting that building pink…along with the one at Sarah(?) and Vandeventer–the bar.
Really, what idiot thinks Pepto-Bismol is a good color to paint a building, much less a brick one?
Someone who wants to attract attention!
And while I know you’re being sarcastic, “Somebody should be shot for painting that building pink” is fighting words. I agree, painting brick is stupid. But if you’re saying that you have the right to be a design vigilante (for the choice of pink), you’ve gone too far. Paint is temporary, it can and wil be replaced. If you want the city or some homeowner’s association telling you which shade of beige to use, move to the ‘burbs!
I default to a saying my wife attributes to her mother: “All of their taste is in their mouth”. Frankly I’m not one of those hyper-sensitive property-rights nutjobs. If you want to do something on your property, and it offends, pollutes, or damages in any way, you should expect some criticism…and in the case with pollution, legal action. Shit, you pussies, if you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.
Hell, Jim, at least I don’t go around repeating lies about asbestos as if I’m a fucking shill for W.R. Grace, et al.
Huh? Where did asbestos enter the discusssion?
And, to quote, “Frankly I’m not one of those hyper-sensitive property-rights nutjobs. If you want to do something on your property, and it offends, pollutes, or damages in any way, you should expect some criticism” and “somebody should be shot for painting that building pink”. There’s a big jump between “some criticism” and “somebody should be shot”.
Sarcasm is harder to convey in print than it is face-to-face, which is why I began my original response with “I know you’re being sarcastic”. The problem is words need to be taken a face value. If you had said the owner should have been cited or sued, there would be less baggage, especially when we live in a violent city, one where one can and does get shot for much, much less (like a hamburger). Advocating for violence does nothing to further the discussion.
Which gets back to the original point, that you don’t like buildings painted Pepto-Bismol pink. What colors do you like? Shades of beige? Deep accents? Pure white? Solid black? Primary colors? Metallics? And if you don’t like a color choice, what recourse should you have? Just bitching about it? Getting the city involved, with some sort of design review? Suing the owners and/or tenants for bad taste and/or emotional distress?
It’s hard to have minimal design review, you either have none or you have total review. I choose to live in a city with no real design review since I don’t want to live in one with stringent regulations, since stringent requlations almost always equals “safe”, bland and boring. Creativity happens on the edges, not in the safe middle. Will you sometimes get bad, ugly results? Absolutely! But you’ll also get quirky, unusual, even cutting-edge solutions – you gotta take the bad with the good.
In my experience suburban municipalities and home owners associations can be just as limiting/controlling as the big bad inner city. It’s false to suggest otherwise.
That was my point – the suburbs are way more limiting than the city when it comes to design standards. Unless a building is in a historic district, the city is more concerned that a building is painted (no peeling paint) than in what color(s) it may be.
I’m not sure I would consider the Grove the prime “gayborhood” in town. Yes, the lion’s share of the gay bars are there, as well as the new location of the Center, but in residential terms, I think (based on anecdote and experience) there isn’t as great a concentration of queer residents in the Grove as in the CWE or especially Tower Grove and Soulard.
Put another way, the Grove is the gayborhood after 9pm on weekends. The rest of the week, the gay population does most of their living elsewhere.
I’m not sure I would consider the Grove the prime “gayborhood” in town. Yes, the lion’s share of the gay bars are there, as well as the new location of the Center, but in residential terms, I think (based on anecdote and experience) there isn’t as great a concentration of queer residents in the Grove as in the CWE or especially Tower Grove and Soulard.
Put another way, the Grove is the gayborhood after 9pm on weekends. The rest of the week, the gay population does most of their living elsewhere.
Someone who wants to attract attention!
And while I know you’re being sarcastic, “Somebody should be shot for painting that building pink” is fighting words. I agree, painting brick is stupid. But if you’re saying that you have the right to be a design vigilante (for the choice of pink), you’ve gone too far. Paint is temporary, it can and wil be replaced. If you want the city or some homeowner’s association telling you which shade of beige to use, move to the ‘burbs!
Because why? They have money to invest? They’re willing to move into vacant retail space? They’ll be hiring local workers? They have a proven track record? They offer a predicatable product? They’ll attract customers? They have no “soul”? Their profits won’t stay local?
Chain restaurants include everything from Dewey’s to Pizza Hut, Hamburger Mary’s to Burger King, Lion’s Choice to Arby’s, the St. Louis Bread Company to Subway. Some chains are obviously better than others. To say that every chain restaurant is bad is just as disingenuous as saying that every individually-owned establishment is the best thing that could ever happen to any neighborhood corner. There are good owners and bad owners, good managers and bad managers.Â
If a chain comes to an established neighborhood and plays by the rules, why should they be excluded? Why, in the Delmar Loop, are Chipotle, Noodles & Co. and Snarf’s “bad” and Cheesology and the Gyro House “good”? Explain how having only one location is inherently better than having two, six or a thousand? The customers will ultimately decide whether any one location succeeds or fails, and few will care how many other locations are somewhere else on this planet!
Chain restaurants are not neighbourhood friendly, especially ones owned by hostile gays. Gays are not friendly to the environment and to the success of St. Louis.Â
Chain restaurants are not neighbourhood friendly, especially ones owned by hostile gays. Gays are not friendly to the environment and to the success of St. Louis.
Please elaborate.
Hamburger Mary’s St. Louis is not owned by “hostile gays.” The investor group members are all St. Louis residents. Some of the investors are straight, some are gay, some are male, some are female, some are young, some are older. It is a very diverse group, much like the customers we hope will enjoy coming to our restaurant. The profits made will stay in St. Louis because we all live here, and we believe in investing in this wonderful city and trying to make it better for all.
“Gays are not friendly to the environment and to the success of St. Louis.”
What a load of shite.
I suspect a troll provocateur hereabout. Dig the spelling of “neighbourhood”! Jolly good! Are we to assume we have a Brit critic in the house who doesn’t want the bloody ponces mucking up Manchester for all the downhome Andy Capps who fancy a pint of wholesomeness unbesmirched by proximity of buggery??
Please elaborate.
I often overhear my teenage son and daughter talking with their friends. If the issue of “gay or lesbian” comes up, it is regarded as a point of information vs. a judgment on the particular lifestyle. It’s great that this generation is so openminded and non-judgmental. I sense that in 10 years,it won’t matter where “gay businesses” are located. They’ll be viewed no differently than “straight” businesses for the most part. There are obviously exceptions (certain gay bookstores/arcades, gay bathhouses, etc), but there is no particular reason why most gay-owned business must locate in a gay district.
I often overhear my teenage son and daughter talking with their friends. If the issue of “gay or lesbian” comes up, it is regarded as a point of information vs. a judgment on the particular lifestyle. It’s great that this generation is so openminded and non-judgmental. I sense that in 10 years,it won’t matter where “gay businesses” are located. They’ll be viewed no differently than “straight” businesses for the most part. There are obviously exceptions (certain gay bookstores/arcades, gay bathhouses, etc), but there is no particular reason why most gay-owned business must locate in a gay district.
I’m Matt Herron with Scottrade Compliance. I am a little fruity and like the smell of feet. Just wanted to let ya all know! Sweet, sweaty feet turn me on.
I’m Matt Herron with Scottrade Compliance. I am a little fruity and like the smell of feet. Just wanted to let ya all know! Sweet, sweaty feet turn me on.
Panera, aka St. Louis Bread Co. started as a local business, now a top 50 restaurant chain in the USA. Should we boycott because they are a chain or patronize them because they are local? And they are still local…their headquarters is in Sunset Hills.Â
In my opinion, it is the management that makes a chain a good neighbor, not the name above the door and not the food coming in as both get their food from the same sources.
Panera, aka St. Louis Bread Co. started as a local business, now a top 50 restaurant chain in the USA. Should we boycott because they are a chain or patronize them because they are local? And they are still local…their headquarters is in Sunset Hills.
In my opinion, it is the management that makes a chain a good neighbor, not the name above the door and not the food coming in as both get their food from the same sources.
Hamburger Mary’s St. Louis is not owned by “hostile gays.” Â The investor group members are all St. Louis residents. Some of the investors are straight, some are gay, some are male, some are female, some are young, some are older. It is a very diverse group, much like the customers we hope will enjoy coming to our restaurant. The profits made will stay in St. Louis because we all live here, and we believe in investing in this wonderful city and trying to make it better for all. Â
Steve laments chains in one post, yet in the same week welcomes another. I’m sorry sarcasm is hard to detect in cyberspace.
I don’t think he was so much welcoming Hamburger Mary’s so much as he was noting that it is a gay establishment (which happens to be a national chain) that’s not opening in the Gay Village of The Grove.Â
“Gays are not friendly to the environment and to the success of St. Louis.”
What a load of shite.
I default to a saying my wife attributes to her mother: “All of their taste is in their mouth”. Frankly I’m not one of those hyper-sensitive property-rights nutjobs. If you want to do something on your property, and it offends, pollutes, or damages in any way, you should expect some criticism…and in the case with pollution, legal action. Shit, you pussies, if you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.
Hell, Jim, at least I don’t go around repeating lies about asbestos as if I’m a fucking shill for W.R. Grace, et al.
In my experience suburban municipalities and home owners associations can be just as limiting/controlling as the big bad inner city. It’s false to suggest otherwise.
That was my point – the suburbs are way more limiting than the city when it comes to design standards. Unless a building is in a historic district, the city is more concerned that a building is painted (no peeling paint) than in what color(s) it may be.
Huh? Where did asbestos enter the discusssion?
And, to quote, “Frankly I’m not one of those hyper-sensitive property-rights nutjobs. If you want to do something on your property, and it offends, pollutes, or damages in any way, you should expect some criticism” and “somebody should be shot for painting that building pink”. There’s a big jump between “some criticism” and “somebody should be shot”.Â
Sarcasm is harder to convey in print than it is face-to-face, which is why I began my original response with “I know you’re being sarcastic”. The problem is words need to be taken a face value. If you had said the owner should have been cited or sued, there would be less baggage, especially when we live in a violent city, one where one can and does get shot for much, much less (like a hamburger). Advocating for violence does nothing to further the discussion.
Which gets back to the original point, that you don’t like buildings painted Pepto-Bismol pink. What colors do you like? Shades of beige? Deep accents? Pure white? Solid black? Primary colors? Metallics? And if you don’t like a color choice, what recourse should you have? Just bitching about it? Getting the city involved, with some sort of design review? Suing the owners and/or tenants for bad taste and/or emotional distress?
It’s hard to have minimal design review, you either have none or you have total review. I choose to live in a city with no real design review since I don’t want to live in one with stringent regulations, since stringent requlations almost always equals “safe”, bland and boring. Creativity happens on the edges, not in the safe middle. Will you sometimes get bad, ugly results? Absolutely! But you’ll also get quirky, unusual, even cutting-edge solutions – you gotta take the bad with the good.
I suspect a troll provocateur hereabout. Dig the spelling of “neighbourhood”! Jolly good! Are we to assume we have a Brit critic in the house who doesn’t want the bloody ponces mucking up Manchester for all the downhome Andy Capps who fancy a pint of wholesomeness unbesmirched by proximity of buggery??Â
What exactly is a LGBT friendly business and why does it need to be in a special part of town?  Do the “gays” like their coffee just a bit more strong than I do and prefer that their local shop know this without requiring that they ask for it?
Its not 1950 anymore, I would think that LGBT money is just as good as cranky old white man money at any business.  No need for segregated commercial districts or special LGBT shops is there? The only people left discriminating against LGBT folks are dinosaurs like bed shitters and backwards Christians.
What exactly is a LGBT friendly business and why does it need to be in a special part of town? Do the “gays” like their coffee just a bit more strong than I do and prefer that their local shop know this without requiring that they ask for it?
Its not 1950 anymore, I would think that LGBT money is just as good as cranky old white man money at any business. No need for segregated commercial districts or special LGBT shops is there? The only people left discriminating against LGBT folks are dinosaurs like bed shitters and backwards Christians.
Seems like everyone is okay with Hamburger Mary’s in Midtown Alley. Come down and give it a try. Food is great at moderate prices and there are lots of things to see and do. Locally owned and operated. Only one location per city.Â
Seems like everyone is okay with Hamburger Mary’s in Midtown Alley. Come down and give it a try. Food is great at moderate prices and there are lots of things to see and do. Locally owned and operated. Only one location per city.