In the first two parts of this series on development sites along a proposed streetcar route I looked at Olive from 15th-16th and Olive from 16th-18th. In both cases it was a small area and I looked a specific buildings and parcels of land. Heading to N. Florissant Ave. & St. Louis Ave. nearly everything is a development site.
Let’s start downtown and work our way north. At 14th & Olive you have the library on the NE corner and the library administration building & a charter high school on the NW corner. I think the library admin building has office space available for lease.
The parking lot at 14th & Locust is privately owned, a good candidate for new construction. Photo is from 2007 before the charter school added another floor to their space on the left.1400 Washington has had numerous development plans, it is now becoming a parking lot, same owner as the previous lot across the alley.I’d like to see these two buildings on Washington Ave west of 14th get renovated, along with a thin wedge between the east wall and 14th. Photo from 2011.
Before we go any further north it makes sense to look at the route on a map along with a development zone on each side of the line. Light rail has stations miles apart, whereas streetcars are more like buses by having more frequent stops along the route.
The blue line is the proposed streetcar route, green about 660ft (1/8th mile) and the red about 1,320ft (1/4 mile). Purple is the new bridge connecting into Tucker. Click to view in Google Maps.
The area between the green lines is the immediate area that I estimate to be part of a special transportation district with slightly higher property taxes, pro-rated based on distance. The red lines are a quarter mile distance, the usual distance a person is willing to walk.
Quite a bit of this area is in what will be one of the Northside Regeneration job centers.
Numerous parking lots occupy significant land north of Washington Ave, ideal candidates for new construction.A former BarnesCare building built in 2001, is now vacant. With no pedestrian access and large setbacks from both MLK & 14th this building should be razed and a new urban building constructed on the site.Hogan Trucking uses two city blocks, Carr St has been vacated. Interestingly the property owner is listed as Hogan Redevelopment Corp.This site must legally remain a public park, as it has been since 1842. Click image for more information.Many would love to see the crumbling Carr School get renovated. Click image for more information on this 1908 structure.7.9 acres ready for development, the original lot boundaries remain since they were never consolidated.The 14th & O’Fallon St bus stop is always busy, but that hasn’t spurred development to date. This stop is currently served by the #32 & #74 MetroBus routesOn the west side of 14th, south of Cass, is the O’Fallon Place Apartments owned by McCormack Baron Salazar.Looking NW on N. Florissant from 14th, vacant land and mostly vacant buildings are all around.The Mullaphy Emigrant Home at 1609 N. 14th could finally get renovated if the streetcar connects the near-north side to downtown. Click image for more information on this historic structure.Looking back toward downtown we see evidence of disinvested in the area along N. Florissant near Madison St. The city says property owners are responsible for sidewalks but in this case the city is the property owner.The City of St. Louis is the legal owner of the 668 sq ft wedge-shaped lot at 1458 Madison St.This small building at 2100 N. Florissant Ave was built in 1906, the owner is in St. Louis County.A bank in Illinois now owns the unfinished daycare at 1501 Clinton & 1500 Monroe. The buildings to the north are owned by several owners, including the LRA & Northside Regeneration.The mostly vacant St. Liborious complex at Hogan & North Market is a city landmark, it is privately owned. Click image for more information.Vast open areas are prime for redevelopment along the proposed streetcar route. This is north of North Market on the west side of North FlorissantThe vacant gas station at 2418 N. Florissant was built in 1972.Two blocks north at 2618 N. Florissant is another vacant gas station, this building has been modified many times since 1938.This building, owned by a person in Atlanta GA, needs to be replaced. The Church’s Chicken could operate out of a storefront in a new building.This building from 1940 should be replaced.This bank was built in 1993 after the urban bank at the corner of N. Florissant & St. Louis Ave was razed, despite neighborhood objections. This should be replaced with an urban building on the corner.The NE corner of N. Florissant & St. Louis Ave. had a cute diner until 1998
With so much vacant land & buildings, this stretch of the proposed streetcar line has the greatest potential for redevelopment. It will also be a challenge initially to get projects funded. Once the line is open and Paul McKee builds one of his job centers near Tucker & Cass things will start to take off. Form-based codes requiring dense urban design will be key to getting the right kind of construction.
It’ll take at least a decade, if not two, for this to be built out.
— Steve Patterson
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Currently there are "56 comments" on this Article:
A bunch of bombed-out vacant lots in North St Louis are the best place you can think of for a streetcar line. As I see it, all this undeveloped land would be better used for a unicorn farm. I have not done a precise calculation, but the chances of success seem pretty similar.
I agree that there are many, many potential development sites along this corridor. I agree that dense, “urban” land use patterns would be the best way to support the investment in rail transit. What I don’t “get” is why, in this economically fragile area, you would even suggest that the few existing, operating businesses (Church’s Chicken, Bank of America) should be “replaced”, apparently in the near future. This isn’t (shouldn’t be?) just an academic exercise. This isn’t happening in a vacuum. Economic disinvestment in north St. Louis is a much bigger issue than poor urban design choices. Take the many vacant sites and build new, better, denser uses on those sites, leaving the few functioning ones alone – if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it, just for the sake of “fixing” things, searching for perfection. For years, there was a standalone, suburban-style Burger King in downtown Denver – http://goo.gl/maps/MVoIz – zoom out for context. Its presence did little to inhibit redevelopment of the surrounding area (the expansion of the convention center had a much bigger impact). The BK site in Denver will eventually get redeveloped, the same thing will happen here with the Church’s site, IF and when the surrounding neighborhood supports it.
The scariest part of this post is how economically depressed this area actually is: “A former BarnesCare building built in 2001, is now vacant” (only a dozen years later!), the “unfinished daycare at 1501 Clinton & 1500 Monroe”, “vacant land and mostly vacant buildings are all around”, “the 14th & O’Fallon St bus stop is always busy, but that hasn’t spurred development to date.” As you note, “streetcars are more like buses by having more frequent stops along the route”. Expecting a slightly-better “bus” to kick start dense urban development, much less development of any type (as in sucky, suburban-scale) appears to be based more on hopes and dreams than on any viable economic reality. Sure, this is a blank canvas, one that was once much more vital and “urban” and one that could and should complement an urban transportation system. I’m just afraid that, bigger picture, a failure to successfully incentivize redevelopment here would doom future investments in streetcars elsewhere in the region.
Just watch, JZ. Urban vision or not, “Northside” will regenerate, specifically because there is vacant land for new construction. What gets built there is the real question. The kind of building Steve envisions costs more than lower density, suburban scale. With land availability so vast and cheap, it’s hard to imagine anyone building higher cost, denser developments. Those sorts of investments happen where land is scarcer and more expensive, like in Clayton and the Central West End.
The McKee project will fail because the concept has no vision and the area is much too risky for investors, and will attract too few families with the resources to afford the $200K housing being discussed. The area is plagued with poorly equipped and operated schools and a school management team that borders on incompetence and greed. New school buildings will not solve the problem. Old wine in new wine skins still tastes like vinegar. And then there’s one other thing to consider: CRIME. It would take 200 years to change the image, and then another 100 years to actually implement a police strategy that will create an environment where families will feel safe sitting on their porches at night, with kids playing in the streets, kids walking home from a school sponsored basketball game at 9 PM, cars stored safely in their driveways at night, stop signs left untouched after a parade, etc. Part of central downtown as we know it today will become an area that will attract young yuppie types who have nothing more to worry about than the finish on their car and the location of the nearest gym. Thank God for underground parking garages! The other part of downtown (the cheaper condos located west of 18th street on Washington) will become absorbed in the preliminary stages of the McKee failure and will eventually become a mostly rental section of downtown, and it will attract its share of HUD housing and low-market trade. Not the best image for an up-and-coming area! And If this streetcar development plan ever gets off the ground, it will become a colossal failure that will make Pruitt Igoe look like just another everyday but unfortunate planning glitch. NSL City will become entirely dormant, abandoned just as much of inner-city Detroit has become. The City and County will obviously merge. When this happens, the current City downtown district (City Hall, police “headquarters”, etc) will be partially abandoned and essentially relocated to a new government district which will be named, definitely somewhere in the county. Clayton would be an ideal location geographically, but it’s too small. And I’m not certain Clayton residents would open their arms to an expanded government presence in their pristine corner of ST Louis County. And NSL county shares only a slightly improved image over NSL City, so that area can be scratched off the list of potential cities where the new government hub is located.. Maybe the new government hub would be located somewhere south–in Pevely, Dittmer? Not such a wild idea, because eventually Interstate 370 will be constructed, running parallel to and many, many miles WEST of current I-270. It is in that newly created corridor that the NEW St. Louis City/County Hub will exist.
St Louis City’s image is so tarnished, corroded, and practically nothing can be done to change that image. Many parts of St Louis County are being seen in the same light…..and so the only sure way to reverse this trend is to abandon, relocate and expand.
I’m one who also used to consider north st. louis city as the confined area of battle ground. But just last week I drove south on South Kingshighway, from Arsenal to Holly Hills. Ten years ago, this was the threshold of a thriving middle-class neighborhood of hardworking folks with 1-1/2 kids, and a manageable mortgage. WOW! That area over a short time frame has changed dramatically. I noticed a plethora of pay-day-loan and similar rent-a-center businesses just north of Devonshire, one after the other with their home-made and/or blinking signage (as designed? Or defective lamps?) and cluttered storefronts.. I was traveling south on South Kingshighway during rush hour and traffic abruptly STOPPED, and for no apparent reason. A woman passenger was getting out of a car, which had just STOPPED in the right traffic lane on Kingshighway, the driver obviously unaware (?) that he had rudely inconvenienced so many drivers. Once out of the car and with considerable effort, the woman slowly reached into the back seat to fetch her purse, also unaware (?) that 10 or so cars were being unlawfully detained behind the car she had just barely crawled out of. She walked into one of the pay-day-loan businesses located in that strip. When I was a kid, I lived in the first block of Murdoch, so I made a quick right and eventually drove past my childhood home…..not a pretty sight. I think the porch paint that I had applied in 2000 was still clinging desperately to columns whose bases had begun to noticeably rot. A three-wheeled vehicle with as many as 3 tickets on the windshield was (almost) parked nearby in the street. Made me sick. I got back onto Kingshighway, drove south….and headed on my way. It’s sad when you realize how the city we grew up in and call home is becoming a smaller version of Detroit.
I think the city will improve when all the residents who refuse to see, hear, or entertain any good news about it whatsoever move. Please sell your houses and move. Years ago I got so sick of long-time residents in my neighborhood (and others) who would argue with striking ferocity against any signs of hope or improvement. Their avid dedication to telling new residents and the world at large how horrible the neighborhood and city were was both tireless and tiresome. When they would cry to me or others that it isn’t like it used to be, it used to be so beauty-full, oh, everyone knew everyone, no one locked their doors, there was no crime, none whatsoever, everyone loved everyone, oh, everything was so beauty-full, oh, it was just so wonderful, but now, oh, now, oh, good gracious, it’s just so horrible, oh all the trashy people, it just breaks my heart, oh…I would beg them to move. I did so after attempting repeatedly to point out all the positive things happening, all the renovation, new businesses, active new residents, etc., in vain. In fact, many of them did move and many of their former homes have since been gut-rehabbed and look more beauty-full now than they did since the halcyon days of ShangriLaLa Neverland, which is located somewhere between another century and the pit of rose-colored imagination. Best of all, they sold their homes to people who really like the neighborhood and tell other people that they like living there. Neighborhoods all have trends and conditions. In some, the conditions may be less than perfect, but encouraging trends indicate that progress is possible. I’m not saying that people should ignore problems, only that if they hang around, why not endeavor to solve them, instead of being some ambassador at large for hopelessness? If they think there is no solving or improving undesirable conditions, they should move and sell their property to someone less despairing.
I no longer live in the neighborhood. My parents sold around 9 years ago. I was commenting on how things used to be…and not so long ago. And even then, things weren’t perfect, believe me. I actually wish the neighborhood future success and much deserved improvement, but in my opinion it is currently caught up in a downward spiral. If things DON’T change….and soon…..it will become an extension of NSL. Call me pessimistic if you want. What would you call those who held out in NSL before that neighborhood entirely deteriorated? These people lost their home investment, which probably took a big chunk out of their retirement savings and/or household budget. And for what? A dream that things would improve? Well, they didn’t, did they? And why should anyone be more optimistic about SS Louis? What has changed that will change the current downward spiral? Spend much time between Kingshighway and So. Grand? Obviously, there and west of South Kingsw’y, current building maintenance codes aren’t enough to force absentee landlords and even some current homeowners to maintain their property to MINIMUM standards already on the books. And without those enforcements, how can things improve? Gutters are falling off the houses, paint is chipping, garages are a makeshift assembly of lumber thrown together like kids building a tree house, yards are unmowed, the alleys are filled with trash. Fences are 20 years past their prime. This isn’t a sign of a neighborhood with a bright future. It is exactly what was seen in NSL long before today! I admire your tenacity. I question your judgement. I’m saying that many families with kids CANNOT AFFORD to risk their families’ financial and personal welfare by investing in these south-city neighborhoods. The crime alone in the general area would give potential buyers reason for pause and very serious reflection. And, as we’ve witnessed in NSL (LIKE IT OR NOT!), crime in SSL has become a byproduct of these conditions.
TEG – It sound to me like you are working very hard at rationalizing your decision to live outside the city in a boring suburb instead of being part of a community working together to make things better. More power to you, your balance sheet, and your kids living on a cul-de-sac somewhere!
Actually my agenda is not self-serving and does not include rationalization. History and the facts speak for themselves. I can’t imagine that it would ever be in my best interests to invest in an area of SSL that is a 1955 mirror image of other areas that have already washed out to sea, several miles north. My kids do play outside in the evenings, after they do their homework. In their schools, homework is assigned, and homework is done. No babysitters. And yes, we do live on a cul-de-sac. It’s nice here….and quiet. Should I apologize for that?
I understand that in certain schools, homework is not typically assigned, and in others it may be assigned but not typically completed. Not patronizing at all. Just stating facts about the school experiences that I am aware of. I see kids exiting city school buses all the time, and I seldom if ever see a book or computer in their hands. Maybe they do their homework on their I-phones! My kids come home with books and projects. They are assigned homework. They do their homework. I know that for a fact.
You ask what is different about the decline of north St. Louis decades ago (let’s say basically beginning with the end of WW II) and the alleged decline of south St. Louis today. Well, as I would hope you agree, innumerable things about our nation at large are radically different from what they were 60-70 years ago. As far as this discussion goes, specifically, I submit that the concept of a successfully integrated neighborhood is one established today and alien to many cities in decades past. All of the things you write about south St. Louis, literally every single thing you state and imply, was directed at where I grew up in the CWE/Skinker-DeBaliviere/Delmar Loop neighborhoods during the 1960s and ’70s. The St. Louis woods were full of “experts” and “smart money” types who never tired of forecasting how it would all be bulldozed into urban renewal oblivion eventually and that any idiot who considered living there deserved whatever fate came his foolhardy way. I, however, grew up around people who did not see giving up, abandoning, and fleeing as either wise or admirable. Despite the popular naysaying, shamefully corroborated by banks and slumlords, they chose to sustain and rejuvenate the area, believing there was much to recommend its continued prosperity and popularity. The result today proves that they were right and the naysayers were wrong.
And yes, I know, crime occurs there today, but the larger reality is that that expansive area is, day in and day out, an economically, racially, and ethnically integrated, prosperous and beautiful one with stunning residential architecture matching anything in the country, thriving institutions, world class cultural assets, and a bright future of spreading into adjoining city neighborhoods. All of this would not be the case if everyone had followed the “smart money”/”expert” voices who frantically proclaimed how doomed it all was 40 years ago. They were wrong then, and with all due respect, I think you are wrong now. That is beside my point, which is that neighborhoods are living entities; some are healthier than others, some are “better” than others in fundamental ways. What they have in common is the reality of being animated by dedicated people. Without that, yes, they will die. Some neighborhoods die. That does not mean that it is inevitable or that communities with challenges should not sustain and be sustained.
That’s the most depressing analysis of the state of STL that I’ve heard. Sadly I think many in the metro area share some variant of this view (especially in the St. Charles area which has effectively seceded from STL). “Oh my God, it’s all gone to shit! Let’s run and hide in a suburban bunker!” Sigh… It’s understandable given the past few decades of STL’s history how you could become so jaded. However, I think this mindset is a big part of what’s holding STL back.
Barring the unbridled success of the McKee NorthSide project I’d say this post is pure fantasy. That’s OK and it’s fun, but virtually nothing will be developed here, north of Delmar–streetcar or not–unless a real game-changer occurs. The streetcar will have ridership but that will come almost entirely from the residents of the area who have no other option. They will not spur development as they have virtually no disposable incomes.
Just watch, new residents will be added to the area because living along the streetcar line will be desirable. These new residents will be able to live very close to downtown, they won’t need cars, they’ll be able to walk to the farmers’ market in Old North, etc…
You make a good point about Old North. I think there’s some potential for development around the street car line there as well.
Again, the ideal situation would be to have the line run a couple blocks over, right down 14th street, through the new shopping district there, & past crown candy. If that same line connected to a line running down Wash Ave this street car line would have so much more potential. You’d have some serious potential for development on and around 14th st without having to depend on the vaporous promises of a wealthy developer (McKee).
Completely disagree, 14th has just been redone. It would need to be ripped out to rebuild for the streetcar. With the streetcar two blocks away more streetscape will get done, adding to the energy in the area. New dense buildings can fill in along N. Florissant while the buildings on 14th have a nice but more modest scale.
Again, I think this is the sunk costs fallacy. Also, if this line ever is built it will be built several years from now–the 14th street pavement won’t be so new by then. To turn your argument around: they’ve already spent so much on the renovations to the 14th street mall (the buildings themselves) that it’d be a waste *not* to have the street car go right to it. To be blunt: North St. Louis is one of the most blighted and crime-ridden parts of any city in the nation. People aren’t going to walk 2-3 blocks at first to get somewhere. They’ll want this line to go straight to their destination.
And what happened in NSL in the past is happening in SSL in the present! Those who don’t agree need to ask themselves why it happened in NSL and why it won’t happen in SSL. I’d be interested to read your theory.
Real life, lived by real people with families, seldom includes “walking to the market” anywhere! Especially in Old North St. Louis! Our day begins at 5:00 AM with breakfast, showers and getting the kids off to school (NO BUS PICKS THEM UP AT THE DOOR. NON-PUBLIC SCHOOLS DON’T PROVIDE THAT!!!!) If there were a trolley available, I doubt it would run within a mile of their schools, anyway. But to use it, we’d have to get them to the trolley stop at least an hour earlier, in which case our day would begin at 4:00 AM). After driving and delivering at two separate schools, then I’m off to the office, and my wife is out the door to her teaching job. She barely finishes her last class and she’s again out the door to pick up the kids at school. The kids usually have soccer, baseball and/or hockey practice, cub scouts or Brownies, violin lessons or Tuba lessons after school, so they change in the car, are delivered to their practice or event, where my wife spends the next 90 minutes+ watching the kids and correcting tests or preparing classes…… unless they’re at different venues, in which case she spends a lot more time driving back and forth in the car. (And I doubt she’d choose to ride a street car back and forth even if it were available and free! And I’m not too certain about the reception we’d get dragging a tuba onto the Trolley. The violin wouldn’t be a problem, I’m guessing. )I leave the office around 6 PM, drive home and meet up with the family, where we eat together around 6:30. Then the kids do their homework. I clean up the kitchen while my wife continues to correct tests/papers and continues her class preparation. TV doesn’t happen until the last bit of homework is completed and reviewed. We’re both involved in the homework process because we believe that parental support is a key motivational factor in our kids’ academic lives. Homework usually ends around 9:30 PM, unless they’re doing a special project which requires more time. Then the kids go to bed, and typically my wife is working on her teaching projects and assignments until 10:00 PM or so, then sometimes we get to watch the news together before we fall into bed ourselves. On Saturdays, there are more kids’ events (practices, clubs, special school projects, campouts for dad and for mom), and even on Saturdays we can’t find time to “walk to a farmers market” anywhere! And all this changes when I have to travel out-of-town for the week, in which case my wife does it all! By herself! And she certainly wouldn’t consider jumping on a streetcar to go anywhere–whether we lived on Clayton Road or on Washington Avenue in one of the condo buildings. There simply isn’t enough time in the day for real people raising real families living in real situations to walk anywhere or ride a trolley to pick up 3 gallons of milk and 6 boxes of cereal, two dozen eggs and three loaves of bread….. and then carry it home on a damn trolley. WE LOVE OUR TWO SUVs
AND THE LOUSY 24 MPG THAT EACH DELIVERS! Man has come of age and he has evolved. We should gratefully accept the many inventions and advancement in life that have made our lives more comfortable and contemporary, (think: VEHICLES) but remember to indulge ourselves perhaps when we have free time to only remember those things in our past that we have outgrown.
My bad! You’re obviously real people, and you obviously have lives to live….but your childless lifestyle might be more easily planned around a trolley schedule–if at all.
The percentage of households with kids continues to decline. Baby boomers have grown kids, they are selling their suburban McMansion and moving to inner cities as are 20-somethings. Sure, not everyone can walk to the market but some of us do so on a daily basis.
If households with kids are on the decline, I wonder who in the period
that otherwise would have been known as the next generation will ride the trolleys.
The improvements to sidewalks, curb cuts, etc which facilitate the walk to the market don’t concern me…..It’s the cost to lay rail, provide for overhead electrical, street modifications etc to construct a multi-million dollar trolley/street car system that, in my opinion, would be used by select groups in limited numbers at best…that concerns me. A lot!
(My daughter is studying non-restrictive adjectival subordinate clauses, and I’m having a hell of a time figuring it out. Can anyone help me with that?)
Admit it, a streetcar is just a “better” bus. If people won’t / can’t use the bus, what magic will make the streetcar better / more accessible / more affordable?! The biggest challenge facing transit in the St. Louis region isn’t the type of wheel, it’s perceptions, followed by a weak route structure that simply doesn’t work for how many people lead their lives every day.
You’re wrong, there is a huge difference between a streetcar and a bus. People are drawn to permanent rail systems, the fact it is rail changes the perception. Those who wouldn’t ride a bus will suddenly use rail. We’ve got 20 years of proof of this with MetroLink.
Add in the fact the zoning and streetscape along the route will change and suddenly people will take notice. You’ll see, you’ll be wrong about this just like those who said 10-15 years ago that nobody would buy lofts downtown.
You’re right, we’ll see. In Portland, it’s a success, in Tampa and Memphis, not so much. It’s one thing to attract the occasional rider or the tourist, it’s a whole ‘nuther thing to attract the daily rider. You said it, “streetcars are more like buses by having more frequent stops along the route”. Frequent stops are good if you only want to go short distances. They’re a real buzz kill, on both buses and streetcars, if you need to go longer distances, especially in non-dense regions like ours. (And with buses, unlike streetcars, adding express service is always a possibility, to serve those who need to go miles, not blocks.) Metrolink has been the relative “success” that it is here because it does offer a viable long-distance alternative; both current streetcar proposals are essentially just replacing local bus routes – we’ll see . . . .
Two problems with your comparison to Tampa & Memphis: both are vintage vehicles geared toward tourists, not locals. Neither, to my knowledge included zoning changes.
The ride from N. Florissant @ St. Louis Ave into the downtown CBD, the Civic Center station (MetroLink, Amtrak, Greyhound) will be quick, much faster than walking. Also faster than waiting for a bus on a nonexistent sidewalk then transferring to the downtown trolley bus to finally reach a job, ball game, or dinner.
And to the best of my knowledge, no zoning changes are being proposed here, either. Yes, the streetcar will be faster than walking, just like taking the bus is faster than walking. The “nonexistent sidewalk” is independent of the mode – a sidewalk can and should be built, no matter if, or what kind of, transit is present. And the issue of transferring doesn’t go away – the only way the streetcar, just like a bus, offers a single seat trip is if both the origin and the destination are on or near that specific route.
As to the type of vehicle, you’re putting way too much stock on “vintage” versus “modern”. Yes, a vintage vehicle may attract more tourists, but for the daily rider, the real core of your system, the specific vehicle type is secondary to safe, clean, comfortable and FREQUENT service, on whatever vehicle is reliably available. Yes, a streetcar offers a certain amount of permanence, but if it doesn’t run frequently enough, late enough, early enough or where you want to go, it’s not much better than the bus that you’re (not?) riding now!
West Philadelphia has “vintage” streetcars. They are regarded as no better than buses, and arguably worse, because are slower (they get stuck behind cars) and louder (their rumble makes the whole street shake, and they make horrible screeching noises when turning). When a bus line was replaced with a streetcar a few years ago, ridership did not rise. Why did Portland’s streetcar succeed and Philadelphia’s not? Perhaps because West Philadelphia is a slum while central Portland is populated by hipsters. Well, North St Louis is much more like West Philadelphia (it’s worse actually) than it is like Portland.
This is why I say the Streetcar lines should run down streets that already have a lot of activity like Delmar Blvd, Wash Ave, Grand Ave, Manchester (the grove), Cherokee, 14th St (Old North), etc. The lines should run along these and act like the like “pedestrian accelerators” for the existing pedestrians. They will expand the range of these pedestrians. They will cause new development but the development will be on the fringes of the activated areas of these streets such as on the part of Delmar east of the loop or the part of Wash Ave west of 18th. They can also connect the vibrant areas together and (hopefully) lead to infill development between them along the lines.
You are right. A light rail system with its own right of way adds speed
and thus is far preferable to a bus. A streetcar on regular streets does
not aad speed and thus has no advantage over a bus. The conventional wisdom among activists seems to favir streetcar and
Bus rapid over light rail (actuqally, they all seem to favor riding bikes)
One of the benefits of living in an urban environment with multiple transit options is that people who are in a phase of their lives which REQUIRES driving can do so. When they’re not in that phase of their lives anymore they have the option of ditching the car again. However, in most of auto-dependent America you are REQUIRED to drive everywhere no matter what phase of life you’re in.
People in the comments below complain that nothing gets done, St. Louis is falling into a hellhole, change is nearly impossible, nothing good can come from North STL, etc. Conservative attitudes contribute significantly to its decline. What we need is new attitudes: young people and newcomers who aren’t afraid of cities, transit, and black people, and haven’t been echoing the same crap in their suburban communities for decades.
In other cities, infill has reclaimed neighborhoods that were nearly gone. Families have moved in. This has happened in parts of St. Louis as well, such as the former Gaslight Square and areas north of Delmar between Union and Goodfellow. The local examples tend to be autocentric neighborhoods, typical of local outmoded thinking, but in Chicago the hottest properties surround transit stops and many residents don’t bother owning vehicles.
Trends over the country at large show marked decreases in auto use and suburban living, especially among young adults. Cars will be obsolete in a few decades at most, given climate change and peak oil. Streetcar lines surrounded by dense development are precisely the way to go in our current reality. It’s time for St. Louis to get with the program.
It’s pretty disheartening to read these comments. The attitudes here reflect the reasons St. Louis declined. Lack of vision, unwillingness to think outside the box, bitch about everything and paint the past in unicorns and rainbows. I also think we need an infusion of new people who love a city for what it is and recognize that STL, while not perfect, has plenty to offer. I also want locals who love the City to stay and be involved and have a voice.
As an aside, I’m really tired of people who don’t live in the City criticizing the city and neighborhoods in which own a home/spend my time in. Anyone who can compare Southampton to a neighborhood on decline loses all credibility in my mind.
You can’t look at Southampton area near St. Louis Hills and say that neighborhood is typical of Southamption! The area near Kingshighway scary. And every year the problems will continue to move west. Don’t believe me? Drive Chippewa west of Kingshighway, all the way INTO St. Louis Hills. Scary! All the rentals along Chippewa, filled with “two families of familiars” doesn’t do anything to improve the image. Right now everything two blocks west of Brannon still looks decent, but be cautious about spending much time along Kingshighway after dark. And be cautious about next year’s surprises.
TEG, you sure you’re not moonlighting here from your expert perch as a conservative commentator on Fox News? ‘Cause you’ve got that gig down solid! What is the “scary” on Chippewa you’re pedaling? Black people? What does “two families of familiars” mean? Sounds like code speak. Oh, I get it. You’re one of those people freed from city residency and now knocking your employer, the City of St. Louis. Is that it?
What’s scary on Chippewa? Boarded up windows, falling gutters and fascias, a front porch propped up with 4 x 4s, broken/cracked glass, crap stored along-side houses, overstuffed furniture on front porches, screen doors falling off hinges, aluminum foil on the windows, weeds growing up to the tops of porch rail parapets, to name a few items I noticed last week when I drove by.
“Families of Familiars” isn’t code-speak. It’s a condition that exists when 1 family signs the lease, then another family moves in to co-habitate. Combined, in one case, both families contribute 6 adults, 9 kids to the block, 4 cars and countless scooters, tricycles, plastic basketball goals, dolls, buggies left overnight all over the sidewalks, terrace, terraces of neighbors, in the street gutters,etc. I have a friend who still lives on the 5300 block of Chippewa, and she sees it first hand. When you live on the block, see what’s going on, who’s entering and exiting the houses, who’s playing outside and on the porches during the day and early evenings, it doesn’t take long to figure out what’s going on in some of those houses.. The City investigates, but officials there are not allowed to enter the premises to do a thorough inspection–can’t prove it, so they have to move on.
This isn’t the Southampton of even 10 years ago. It’s NSL in 1956, when similar conditions started to show up in that area. And MY POINT was that something has to be done about the decline in Southampton. Otherwise, whatever went wrong in NSL will likely also go wrong in SSL. All things being equal, IF IT HAPPENED IN NSL, WHY WOULD SSL NOT SUFFER A SIMILAR FATE? What has changed? Minimum building standards and occupancy codes are ON THE BOOKS at City Hall. Why aren’t they being enforced? Do you think that somehow this corrosion will stop on its own? Slowly it will destroy SSL, just as it did in NSL.
I’m not “pedaling” anything. I grew up in the neighborhood, 8 or so blocks south. Many happy memories. After college, I moved on. My parents were forced out almost 9 years ago when our home was robbed when my mother was sleeping upstairs alone. Could have happened anywhere, I know. But it didn’t happen “anywhere”; it happened 15 feet from my mother’s bed! I’M SIMPLY TRYING TO BRING ATTENTION TO THE DECLINE THAT I’VE NOTICED, HOPING THAT THE CITY WILL PAY ATTENTION TO THE CODE AND PROPERTY MAINTENANCE VIOLATIONS.
No, I won’t move back. Why? Because I think the area is gone. I have no confidence in the city’s enforcement division, and I regretfully think it’s a simple matter of time before all of what we now recognize as really BAD in NSL extends all the way south to Holly Hills.
No, I am not a City employee. I own my own business.
You do know that areas east of Southampton, on both sides of Grand, are doing quite well, with property values far in excess of the average in Southampton, and a diverse mix of people. How does your theory explain that?
Oh, I don’t know….! I guess I’ll just say that if you are blind to the obvious problems of both communities and if you aren’t pestering City Hall every week about the flagrant violations of building codes that are common to both areas…..then I suppose you’re “one of them” and that these obvious signs of decline meet with your level of expectation. It’s just not good enough for me, because a significant number of residents obviously don’t respect themselves or their neighbors (neighborhood) enough to pick up that old lamp that’s been lying alongside the house over the entire winter, or replace a gutter that’s hanging 45 degrees off the side of the roof fascia! I would like to think I am wrong. But leaving that neighborhood for my family AND ME was more than taking a favorite jacket off for the last time and throwing it in the trash. Frankly, especially for my parents, it was like removing a layer of skin! My parents sold out (as you suggest) 9 years ago and moved to Clayton. My mother no longer loves where she lives. She loved Southampton for the first 33 years she lived there. She says that now, though, she feels safe again. I have no agenda. Just a lot of concern about the neighborhood, both sides of Kingshighway.
I’m not sure choosing a streetcar route without a viable city plan makes sense. The design opportunities in this area are endless. This can mean new public spaces that collect transit for instance.
I can remember when people though I was crazy moving to Soulard in the seventies. Things can and will change fast. Behind every conversation about urban planning and design is the specter of oil, climate change and all of the other elements that will make the suburbs the slums of tomorrow.
One final comment about McKee. I am guessing he will produce a plan with a few “highly visible” urban strategies that will distract from the underlying fact the plan will be suburban light and structurally auto centric.
To me it is clear at this point that the powers to be who make these decisions supposedly in the public interest either don’t have a clue what they are doing or something more nefarious is going on.
The question I would ask is what would a viable city plan for the Northside look like? A plan that would include streetcars and many other urban design features that point towards success is certainly possible. (Where is that plan?, It is what Judge Dierker was asking)
It is not like this should be a big mystery, city after city does a better job of city design and planning than St. Louis.
While I agree that a bottom up approach is needed, the ideas have to be put forth for discussion as Steve is doing here. Without ideas for public discussion it doesn’t matter what is bottom or top.
For example, just to focus on streetcar line possibilities. The lines should be integrated into a system that allows efficient movement, an identifiable system that is easy to get around,with frequent stops and compliments walkability in both neighborhoods and central business districts.
The potential for land development is not the first concern. Besides if you don’t focus on building transit with a supporting physical city environment of public spaces, enhanced connectivity and so on, you may in fact find that derelict streetcar line ends up the looking just as derelict in twenty years.(A perfect example of this is the moribund state of TOD development around metro stations after 20 yrs)
Getting around town should be it, it should be the main goal. Great transit is central to the success of the city. And the form of the city can enhance transit.
A discussion of the various ways this can happen is not in the public realm.
The only real reason for building a streetcar line along this route is the politics of “equity”. Other corridors offer both better ridership and better development opportunities. If we were really smart, we’d be looking at less expensive solutions that deliver more “bang for the buck”, things like enhanced bus service or BRT, so that better service could be provided well beyond St. Louis Avenue, out into the county.
Denver’s looking at three alternatives to improve service along one of its busiest bus routes, and these three videos do a great job of highlighting the differences between modes. As with anything, there aretradeoffs regarding cost – a better bus will cost significantly less than a modern streetcar, so it boils down to how much territory do you cover for X number of dollars (or do you just find more money to “do it right”?)
JZ, good links, Denver demonstrates innovative solutions. While I agree that bus lines are possible solutions, as indicated in the videos there is a place for streetcars.
The idea of “branded” lines is one aspect and reminds me of the double decker buses in London, There is also a need for a “branded” city transit environment. ie, I’ll meet you at the Water Tower Stop on North Grand (the Water Tower stop is of course full of amenities, coffee shops, walkable neighborhoods and commercial activity)
It looks Denver is doing a good job. It at least seems to be experimenting and looking for solutions vs St. Louis where Paul McKee buys policy and city planning from city government who allow him carte blanche with no citizen input.
So the questions I have for you JZ is how does Denver handle integration of the physical city environment with transit?
Also how are the public interactions, presentation of ideas and so on, including media involvement different than St. Louis?
There are many things that can be discussed. Really the main question is how Denver handles public dialogue about these projects. What options are presented to the public?
The three biggest differences are that their Regional Transportation District (RTD) is governed by a board elected directly by the voters, not appointed, like here, RTD is structured as a quasi-governmental agency, with the ability to set its own budget and priorities in a large service area, funded by a dedicated sales tax, and RTD works closely with jurisdictions (Denver, Aurora, Littleton, Boulder, etc) that “get” and embrace public transit. Taken together, the public perception, and thus the embrace, of public transit is higher and greater. Combine that with continued growth, in both the city center and suburban employment centers, that has driven up land values, which, in turn, makes denser, infill development both financially feasible and the better solution than typical suburban sprawl / urban disinvestment, and the synergy is much better. It all boils down to leadership combined with a better economy and a more eco-oriented, younger-thinking mindset. As for public dialogue, there’s an expectation that it should happen, so it does.
This is helpful information, but what does the public involvement look like? Expectations are one thing, but if there is little knowledge of what is going on, as in the case of McKee’s Northside project, who, along with city government has turned a deaf ear to any suggestion of public transparency including a verdict by Judge Dierker, saying city planning is inadequate.
The current situation makes dialogue impossible, yet there is an expectation that discussion should occur here in St. Louis as well as in Denver. (Notice we cannot discuss Steve’s proposed routes within the context of a Northside Plan by McKee)
I guess the question remains. What other mechanisms of public involvement are in place, or is it simply a matter that Denver elites are benevolent dictators?
San Francisco has a proactive urban planning process for instance, anything comparable in Denver?
The other big difference in Denver is that registered neighborhood organizations (RNO’s) have a defined status in city ordinances*, one that REQUIRES that city departments notify them of certain activities (zoning changes, planning initiatives, etc.), which, in turn, gives them enhanced status before City Council and gives interested residents both the information and the forum to be involved in many planning and transportation decisions. Yes, part of it is cultural and part of it is legal, but, in total, it’s a much more open process. Here, the role of RNO’s appears to be largely replaced by our small wards and our multiple aldermen. The downside, if there is one, is simply in “who you know” – if you’re part of “your” alderman’s inner circle, you’re a part of the process; if you’re “on the outside looking in”, in most wards, good luck – the best you can expect is lip service, if that. Changing that will require both a fundamental change in mindset and some significant legal changes. It will also require empowering city staff to a degree that doesn’t seem possible here – in Denver, City Council members actually listen to and defer to professional expertise!
You illustrate why Denver innovates while St Louis falls into the dark ages. Speaking of St. Louis wards, I know a Northside ward that a community organization was put out of business because they did not have the correct political views. It is a fact St. Louis Aldermen control the budgets of many neighborhood organizations,
Do you know how these “independent” Denver neighborhood associations are funded? What you describe sounds like an excellent structure for public involvement. Especially when compared to the feudal fiefdoms of St. Louis.
They’re typically funded by low, annual, voluntary dues ($10-$20) and rely on the pro bono, work of many volunteers. The key component is open communication, the biggest challenge is making people aware of a group’s existence, absent a “big issue” in the neighborhood – a contentious rezoning, a problem liquor license. a new commercial development. It’s a cliche, but information is power. And by forcing communication among residents, city staff and elected officials, residents are empowered – city business doesn’t happen under an apparent cloud of secrecy. I’d also argue that our small wards are a part of the problem here – our aldermen assume that they “know” what their constituents want. In Denver, with their five-times-larger council districts (56,000 constituents there, versus 11,350 per ward here), the council members rely more on neighborhood organizations to communicate with and get a feel on local concerns, again, empowering these grassroots organizations. Is it perfect? No – you still get the people you elect, but at least the framework encourages more dialogue than we typically see here.
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Oh, yeah. Investors will surely be leaping over themselves to throw their money at this problem.
“Wait a minute….streetcars? We’re in!”
A bunch of bombed-out vacant lots in North St Louis are the best place you can think of for a streetcar line. As I see it, all this undeveloped land would be better used for a unicorn farm. I have not done a precise calculation, but the chances of success seem pretty similar.
I don’t think Steve is proposing putting the streetcar line there, it’s been proposed by others.
I agree that there are many, many potential development sites along this corridor. I agree that dense, “urban” land use patterns would be the best way to support the investment in rail transit. What I don’t “get” is why, in this economically fragile area, you would even suggest that the few existing, operating businesses (Church’s Chicken, Bank of America) should be “replaced”, apparently in the near future. This isn’t (shouldn’t be?) just an academic exercise. This isn’t happening in a vacuum. Economic disinvestment in north St. Louis is a much bigger issue than poor urban design choices. Take the many vacant sites and build new, better, denser uses on those sites, leaving the few functioning ones alone – if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it, just for the sake of “fixing” things, searching for perfection. For years, there was a standalone, suburban-style Burger King in downtown Denver – http://goo.gl/maps/MVoIz – zoom out for context. Its presence did little to inhibit redevelopment of the surrounding area (the expansion of the convention center had a much bigger impact). The BK site in Denver will eventually get redeveloped, the same thing will happen here with the Church’s site, IF and when the surrounding neighborhood supports it.
The scariest part of this post is how economically depressed this area actually is: “A former BarnesCare building built in 2001, is now vacant” (only a dozen years later!), the “unfinished daycare at 1501 Clinton & 1500 Monroe”, “vacant land and mostly vacant buildings are all around”, “the 14th & O’Fallon St bus stop is always busy, but that hasn’t spurred development to date.” As you note, “streetcars are more like buses by having more frequent stops along the route”. Expecting a slightly-better “bus” to kick start dense urban development, much less development of any type (as in sucky, suburban-scale) appears to be based more on hopes and dreams than on any viable economic reality. Sure, this is a blank canvas, one that was once much more vital and “urban” and one that could and should complement an urban transportation system. I’m just afraid that, bigger picture, a failure to successfully incentivize redevelopment here would doom future investments in streetcars elsewhere in the region.
Just watch, JZ. Urban vision or not, “Northside” will regenerate, specifically because there is vacant land for new construction. What gets built there is the real question. The kind of building Steve envisions costs more than lower density, suburban scale. With land availability so vast and cheap, it’s hard to imagine anyone building higher cost, denser developments. Those sorts of investments happen where land is scarcer and more expensive, like in Clayton and the Central West End.
The McKee project will fail because the concept has no vision and the area is much too risky for investors, and will attract too few families with the resources to afford the $200K housing being discussed. The area is plagued with poorly equipped and operated schools and a school management team that borders on incompetence and greed. New school buildings will not solve the problem. Old wine in new wine skins still tastes like vinegar. And then there’s one other thing to consider: CRIME. It would take 200 years to change the image, and then another 100 years to actually implement a police strategy that will create an environment where families will feel safe sitting on their porches at night, with kids playing in the streets, kids walking home from a school sponsored basketball game at 9 PM, cars stored safely in their driveways at night, stop signs left untouched after a parade, etc. Part of central downtown as we know it today will become an area that will attract young yuppie types who have nothing more to worry about than the finish on their car and the location of the nearest gym. Thank God for underground parking garages! The other part of downtown (the cheaper condos located west of 18th street on Washington) will become absorbed in the preliminary stages of the McKee failure and will eventually become a mostly rental section of downtown, and it will attract its share of HUD housing and low-market trade. Not the best image for an up-and-coming area! And If this streetcar development plan ever gets off the ground, it will become a colossal failure that will make Pruitt Igoe look like just another everyday but unfortunate planning glitch. NSL City will become entirely dormant, abandoned just as much of inner-city Detroit has become. The City and County will obviously merge. When this happens, the current City downtown district (City Hall, police “headquarters”, etc) will be partially abandoned and essentially relocated to a new government district which will be named, definitely somewhere in the county. Clayton would be an ideal location geographically, but it’s too small. And I’m not certain Clayton residents would open their arms to an expanded government presence in their pristine corner of ST Louis County. And NSL county shares only a slightly improved image over NSL City, so that area can be scratched off the list of potential cities where the new government hub is located.. Maybe the new government hub would be located somewhere south–in Pevely, Dittmer? Not such a wild idea, because eventually Interstate 370 will be constructed, running parallel to and many, many miles WEST of current I-270. It is in that newly created corridor that the NEW St. Louis City/County Hub will exist.
St Louis City’s image is so tarnished, corroded, and practically nothing can be done to change that image. Many parts of St Louis County are being seen in the same light…..and so the only sure way to reverse this trend is to abandon, relocate and expand.
I’m one who also used to consider north st. louis city as the confined area of battle ground. But just last week I drove south on South Kingshighway, from Arsenal to Holly Hills. Ten years ago, this was the threshold of a thriving middle-class neighborhood of hardworking folks with 1-1/2 kids, and a manageable mortgage. WOW! That area over a short time frame has changed dramatically. I noticed a plethora of pay-day-loan and similar rent-a-center businesses just north of Devonshire, one after the other with their home-made and/or blinking signage (as designed? Or defective lamps?) and cluttered storefronts.. I was traveling south on South Kingshighway during rush hour and traffic abruptly STOPPED, and for no apparent reason. A woman passenger was getting out of a car, which had just STOPPED in the right traffic lane on Kingshighway, the driver obviously unaware (?) that he had rudely inconvenienced so many drivers. Once out of the car and with considerable effort, the woman slowly reached into the back seat to fetch her purse, also unaware (?) that 10 or so cars were being unlawfully detained behind the car she had just barely crawled out of. She walked into one of the pay-day-loan businesses located in that strip. When I was a kid, I lived in the first block of Murdoch, so I made a quick right and eventually drove past my childhood home…..not a pretty sight. I think the porch paint that I had applied in 2000 was still clinging desperately to columns whose bases had begun to noticeably rot. A three-wheeled vehicle with as many as 3 tickets on the windshield was (almost) parked nearby in the street. Made me sick. I got back onto Kingshighway, drove south….and headed on my way. It’s sad when you realize how the city we grew up in and call home is becoming a smaller version of Detroit.
I think the city will improve when all the residents who refuse to see, hear, or entertain any good news about it whatsoever move. Please sell your houses and move. Years ago I got so sick of long-time residents in my neighborhood (and others) who would argue with striking ferocity against any signs of hope or improvement. Their avid dedication to telling new residents and the world at large how horrible the neighborhood and city were was both tireless and tiresome. When they would cry to me or others that it isn’t like it used to be, it used to be so beauty-full, oh, everyone knew everyone, no one locked their doors, there was no crime, none whatsoever, everyone loved everyone, oh, everything was so beauty-full, oh, it was just so wonderful, but now, oh, now, oh, good gracious, it’s just so horrible, oh all the trashy people, it just breaks my heart, oh…I would beg them to move. I did so after attempting repeatedly to point out all the positive things happening, all the renovation, new businesses, active new residents, etc., in vain. In fact, many of them did move and many of their former homes have since been gut-rehabbed and look more beauty-full now than they did since the halcyon days of ShangriLaLa Neverland, which is located somewhere between another century and the pit of rose-colored imagination. Best of all, they sold their homes to people who really like the neighborhood and tell other people that they like living there. Neighborhoods all have trends and conditions. In some, the conditions may be less than perfect, but encouraging trends indicate that progress is possible. I’m not saying that people should ignore problems, only that if they hang around, why not endeavor to solve them, instead of being some ambassador at large for hopelessness? If they think there is no solving or improving undesirable conditions, they should move and sell their property to someone less despairing.
I no longer live in the neighborhood. My parents sold around 9 years ago. I was commenting on how things used to be…and not so long ago. And even then, things weren’t perfect, believe me. I actually wish the neighborhood future success and much deserved improvement, but in my opinion it is currently caught up in a downward spiral. If things DON’T change….and soon…..it will become an extension of NSL. Call me pessimistic if you want. What would you call those who held out in NSL before that neighborhood entirely deteriorated? These people lost their home investment, which probably took a big chunk out of their retirement savings and/or household budget. And for what? A dream that things would improve? Well, they didn’t, did they? And why should anyone be more optimistic about SS Louis? What has changed that will change the current downward spiral? Spend much time between Kingshighway and So. Grand? Obviously, there and west of South Kingsw’y, current building maintenance codes aren’t enough to force absentee landlords and even some current homeowners to maintain their property to MINIMUM standards already on the books. And without those enforcements, how can things improve? Gutters are falling off the houses, paint is chipping, garages are a makeshift assembly of lumber thrown together like kids building a tree house, yards are unmowed, the alleys are filled with trash. Fences are 20 years past their prime. This isn’t a sign of a neighborhood with a bright future. It is exactly what was seen in NSL long before today! I admire your tenacity. I question your judgement. I’m saying that many families with kids CANNOT AFFORD to risk their families’ financial and personal welfare by investing in these south-city neighborhoods. The crime alone in the general area would give potential buyers reason for pause and very serious reflection. And, as we’ve witnessed in NSL (LIKE IT OR NOT!), crime in SSL has become a byproduct of these conditions.
TEG – It sound to me like you are working very hard at rationalizing your decision to live outside the city in a boring suburb instead of being part of a community working together to make things better. More power to you, your balance sheet, and your kids living on a cul-de-sac somewhere!
Actually my agenda is not self-serving and does not include rationalization. History and the facts speak for themselves. I can’t imagine that it would ever be in my best interests to invest in an area of SSL that is a 1955 mirror image of other areas that have already washed out to sea, several miles north. My kids do play outside in the evenings, after they do their homework. In their schools, homework is assigned, and homework is done. No babysitters. And yes, we do live on a cul-de-sac. It’s nice here….and quiet. Should I apologize for that?
Hmmm. What’s with the patronizing tone about homework being assigned at your children’s schools?
I understand that in certain schools, homework is not typically assigned, and in others it may be assigned but not typically completed. Not patronizing at all. Just stating facts about the school experiences that I am aware of. I see kids exiting city school buses all the time, and I seldom if ever see a book or computer in their hands. Maybe they do their homework on their I-phones! My kids come home with books and projects. They are assigned homework. They do their homework. I know that for a fact.
You ask what is different about the decline of north St. Louis decades ago (let’s say basically beginning with the end of WW II) and the alleged decline of south St. Louis today. Well, as I would hope you agree, innumerable things about our nation at large are radically different from what they were 60-70 years ago. As far as this discussion goes, specifically, I submit that the concept of a successfully integrated neighborhood is one established today and alien to many cities in decades past. All of the things you write about south St. Louis, literally every single thing you state and imply, was directed at where I grew up in the CWE/Skinker-DeBaliviere/Delmar Loop neighborhoods during the 1960s and ’70s. The St. Louis woods were full of “experts” and “smart money” types who never tired of forecasting how it would all be bulldozed into urban renewal oblivion eventually and that any idiot who considered living there deserved whatever fate came his foolhardy way. I, however, grew up around people who did not see giving up, abandoning, and fleeing as either wise or admirable. Despite the popular naysaying, shamefully corroborated by banks and slumlords, they chose to sustain and rejuvenate the area, believing there was much to recommend its continued prosperity and popularity. The result today proves that they were right and the naysayers were wrong.
And yes, I know, crime occurs there today, but the larger reality is that that expansive area is, day in and day out, an economically, racially, and ethnically integrated, prosperous and beautiful one with stunning residential architecture matching anything in the country, thriving institutions, world class cultural assets, and a bright future of spreading into adjoining city neighborhoods. All of this would not be the case if everyone had followed the “smart money”/”expert” voices who frantically proclaimed how doomed it all was 40 years ago. They were wrong then, and with all due respect, I think you are wrong now. That is beside my point, which is that neighborhoods are living entities; some are healthier than others, some are “better” than others in fundamental ways. What they have in common is the reality of being animated by dedicated people. Without that, yes, they will die. Some neighborhoods die. That does not mean that it is inevitable or that communities with challenges should not sustain and be sustained.
Classic: “…but now, oh, now, oh, good gracious, it’s just so horrible…”
“Branwell1”, please keep the amusing comments coming! Priceless.
That’s the most depressing analysis of the state of STL that I’ve heard. Sadly I think many in the metro area share some variant of this view (especially in the St. Charles area which has effectively seceded from STL). “Oh my God, it’s all gone to shit! Let’s run and hide in a suburban bunker!” Sigh… It’s understandable given the past few decades of STL’s history how you could become so jaded. However, I think this mindset is a big part of what’s holding STL back.
>>I think this mindset is a big part of what’s holding STL back.<<
You are exactly right.
Barring the unbridled success of the McKee NorthSide project I’d say this post is pure fantasy. That’s OK and it’s fun, but virtually nothing will be developed here, north of Delmar–streetcar or not–unless a real game-changer occurs. The streetcar will have ridership but that will come almost entirely from the residents of the area who have no other option. They will not spur development as they have virtually no disposable incomes.
Just watch, new residents will be added to the area because living along the streetcar line will be desirable. These new residents will be able to live very close to downtown, they won’t need cars, they’ll be able to walk to the farmers’ market in Old North, etc…
You make a good point about Old North. I think there’s some potential for development around the street car line there as well.
Again, the ideal situation would be to have the line run a couple blocks over, right down 14th street, through the new shopping district there, & past crown candy. If that same line connected to a line running down Wash Ave this street car line would have so much more potential. You’d have some serious potential for development on and around 14th st without having to depend on the vaporous promises of a wealthy developer (McKee).
Completely disagree, 14th has just been redone. It would need to be ripped out to rebuild for the streetcar. With the streetcar two blocks away more streetscape will get done, adding to the energy in the area. New dense buildings can fill in along N. Florissant while the buildings on 14th have a nice but more modest scale.
Again, I think this is the sunk costs fallacy. Also, if this line ever is built it will be built several years from now–the 14th street pavement won’t be so new by then. To turn your argument around: they’ve already spent so much on the renovations to the 14th street mall (the buildings themselves) that it’d be a waste *not* to have the street car go right to it. To be blunt: North St. Louis is one of the most blighted and crime-ridden parts of any city in the nation. People aren’t going to walk 2-3 blocks at first to get somewhere. They’ll want this line to go straight to their destination.
And what happened in NSL in the past is happening in SSL in the present! Those who don’t agree need to ask themselves why it happened in NSL and why it won’t happen in SSL. I’d be interested to read your theory.
Real life, lived by real people with families, seldom includes “walking to the market” anywhere! Especially in Old North St. Louis! Our day begins at 5:00 AM with breakfast, showers and getting the kids off to school (NO BUS PICKS THEM UP AT THE DOOR. NON-PUBLIC SCHOOLS DON’T PROVIDE THAT!!!!) If there were a trolley available, I doubt it would run within a mile of their schools, anyway. But to use it, we’d have to get them to the trolley stop at least an hour earlier, in which case our day would begin at 4:00 AM). After driving and delivering at two separate schools, then I’m off to the office, and my wife is out the door to her teaching job. She barely finishes her last class and she’s again out the door to pick up the kids at school. The kids usually have soccer, baseball and/or hockey practice, cub scouts or Brownies, violin lessons or Tuba lessons after school, so they change in the car, are delivered to their practice or event, where my wife spends the next 90 minutes+ watching the kids and correcting tests or preparing classes…… unless they’re at different venues, in which case she spends a lot more time driving back and forth in the car. (And I doubt she’d choose to ride a street car back and forth even if it were available and free! And I’m not too certain about the reception we’d get dragging a tuba onto the Trolley. The violin wouldn’t be a problem, I’m guessing. )I leave the office around 6 PM, drive home and meet up with the family, where we eat together around 6:30. Then the kids do their homework. I clean up the kitchen while my wife continues to correct tests/papers and continues her class preparation. TV doesn’t happen until the last bit of homework is completed and reviewed. We’re both involved in the homework process because we believe that parental support is a key motivational factor in our kids’ academic lives. Homework usually ends around 9:30 PM, unless they’re doing a special project which requires more time. Then the kids go to bed, and typically my wife is working on her teaching projects and assignments until 10:00 PM or so, then sometimes we get to watch the news together before we fall into bed ourselves. On Saturdays, there are more kids’ events (practices, clubs, special school projects, campouts for dad and for mom), and even on Saturdays we can’t find time to “walk to a farmers market” anywhere! And all this changes when I have to travel out-of-town for the week, in which case my wife does it all! By herself! And she certainly wouldn’t consider jumping on a streetcar to go anywhere–whether we lived on Clayton Road or on Washington Avenue in one of the condo buildings. There simply isn’t enough time in the day for real people raising real families living in real situations to walk anywhere or ride a trolley to pick up 3 gallons of milk and 6 boxes of cereal, two dozen eggs and three loaves of bread….. and then carry it home on a damn trolley. WE LOVE OUR TWO SUVs
AND THE LOUSY 24 MPG THAT EACH DELIVERS! Man has come of age and he has evolved. We should gratefully accept the many inventions and advancement in life that have made our lives more comfortable and contemporary, (think: VEHICLES) but remember to indulge ourselves perhaps when we have free time to only remember those things in our past that we have outgrown.
I keep forgetting people without kids or “family” aren’t real people who have lives to live.
My bad! You’re obviously real people, and you obviously have lives to live….but your childless lifestyle might be more easily planned around a trolley schedule–if at all.
The percentage of households with kids continues to decline. Baby boomers have grown kids, they are selling their suburban McMansion and moving to inner cities as are 20-somethings. Sure, not everyone can walk to the market but some of us do so on a daily basis.
If households with kids are on the decline, I wonder who in the period
that otherwise would have been known as the next generation will ride the trolleys.
The improvements to sidewalks, curb cuts, etc which facilitate the walk to the market don’t concern me…..It’s the cost to lay rail, provide for overhead electrical, street modifications etc to construct a multi-million dollar trolley/street car system that, in my opinion, would be used by select groups in limited numbers at best…that concerns me. A lot!
(My daughter is studying non-restrictive adjectival subordinate clauses, and I’m having a hell of a time figuring it out. Can anyone help me with that?)
Admit it, a streetcar is just a “better” bus. If people won’t / can’t use the bus, what magic will make the streetcar better / more accessible / more affordable?! The biggest challenge facing transit in the St. Louis region isn’t the type of wheel, it’s perceptions, followed by a weak route structure that simply doesn’t work for how many people lead their lives every day.
You’re wrong, there is a huge difference between a streetcar and a bus. People are drawn to permanent rail systems, the fact it is rail changes the perception. Those who wouldn’t ride a bus will suddenly use rail. We’ve got 20 years of proof of this with MetroLink.
Add in the fact the zoning and streetscape along the route will change and suddenly people will take notice. You’ll see, you’ll be wrong about this just like those who said 10-15 years ago that nobody would buy lofts downtown.
You’re right, we’ll see. In Portland, it’s a success, in Tampa and Memphis, not so much. It’s one thing to attract the occasional rider or the tourist, it’s a whole ‘nuther thing to attract the daily rider. You said it, “streetcars are more like buses by having more frequent stops along the route”. Frequent stops are good if you only want to go short distances. They’re a real buzz kill, on both buses and streetcars, if you need to go longer distances, especially in non-dense regions like ours. (And with buses, unlike streetcars, adding express service is always a possibility, to serve those who need to go miles, not blocks.) Metrolink has been the relative “success” that it is here because it does offer a viable long-distance alternative; both current streetcar proposals are essentially just replacing local bus routes – we’ll see . . . .
Two problems with your comparison to Tampa & Memphis: both are vintage vehicles geared toward tourists, not locals. Neither, to my knowledge included zoning changes.
The ride from N. Florissant @ St. Louis Ave into the downtown CBD, the Civic Center station (MetroLink, Amtrak, Greyhound) will be quick, much faster than walking. Also faster than waiting for a bus on a nonexistent sidewalk then transferring to the downtown trolley bus to finally reach a job, ball game, or dinner.
And to the best of my knowledge, no zoning changes are being proposed here, either. Yes, the streetcar will be faster than walking, just like taking the bus is faster than walking. The “nonexistent sidewalk” is independent of the mode – a sidewalk can and should be built, no matter if, or what kind of, transit is present. And the issue of transferring doesn’t go away – the only way the streetcar, just like a bus, offers a single seat trip is if both the origin and the destination are on or near that specific route.
As to the type of vehicle, you’re putting way too much stock on “vintage” versus “modern”. Yes, a vintage vehicle may attract more tourists, but for the daily rider, the real core of your system, the specific vehicle type is secondary to safe, clean, comfortable and FREQUENT service, on whatever vehicle is reliably available. Yes, a streetcar offers a certain amount of permanence, but if it doesn’t run frequently enough, late enough, early enough or where you want to go, it’s not much better than the bus that you’re (not?) riding now!
West Philadelphia has “vintage” streetcars. They are regarded as no better than buses, and arguably worse, because are slower (they get stuck behind cars) and louder (their rumble makes the whole street shake, and they make horrible screeching noises when turning). When a bus line was replaced with a streetcar a few years ago, ridership did not rise. Why did Portland’s streetcar succeed and Philadelphia’s not? Perhaps because West Philadelphia is a slum while central Portland is populated by hipsters. Well, North St Louis is much more like West Philadelphia (it’s worse actually) than it is like Portland.
This is why I say the Streetcar lines should run down streets that already have a lot of activity like Delmar Blvd, Wash Ave, Grand Ave, Manchester (the grove), Cherokee, 14th St (Old North), etc. The lines should run along these and act like the like “pedestrian accelerators” for the existing pedestrians. They will expand the range of these pedestrians. They will cause new development but the development will be on the fringes of the activated areas of these streets such as on the part of Delmar east of the loop or the part of Wash Ave west of 18th. They can also connect the vibrant areas together and (hopefully) lead to infill development between them along the lines.
You are right. A light rail system with its own right of way adds speed
and thus is far preferable to a bus. A streetcar on regular streets does
not aad speed and thus has no advantage over a bus. The conventional wisdom among activists seems to favir streetcar and
Bus rapid over light rail (actuqally, they all seem to favor riding bikes)
There are a helluva lot of vacant lofts downtown.
Less taking care of kids means more taking care of parents a generation later. Society doesn’t gain overall.
One of the benefits of living in an urban environment with multiple transit options is that people who are in a phase of their lives which REQUIRES driving can do so. When they’re not in that phase of their lives anymore they have the option of ditching the car again. However, in most of auto-dependent America you are REQUIRED to drive everywhere no matter what phase of life you’re in.
People in the comments below complain that nothing gets done, St. Louis is falling into a hellhole, change is nearly impossible, nothing good can come from North STL, etc. Conservative attitudes contribute significantly to its decline. What we need is new attitudes: young people and newcomers who aren’t afraid of cities, transit, and black people, and haven’t been echoing the same crap in their suburban communities for decades.
In other cities, infill has reclaimed neighborhoods that were nearly gone. Families have moved in. This has happened in parts of St. Louis as well, such as the former Gaslight Square and areas north of Delmar between Union and Goodfellow. The local examples tend to be autocentric neighborhoods, typical of local outmoded thinking, but in Chicago the hottest properties surround transit stops and many residents don’t bother owning vehicles.
Trends over the country at large show marked decreases in auto use and suburban living, especially among young adults. Cars will be obsolete in a few decades at most, given climate change and peak oil. Streetcar lines surrounded by dense development are precisely the way to go in our current reality. It’s time for St. Louis to get with the program.
It’s pretty disheartening to read these comments. The attitudes here reflect the reasons St. Louis declined. Lack of vision, unwillingness to think outside the box, bitch about everything and paint the past in unicorns and rainbows. I also think we need an infusion of new people who love a city for what it is and recognize that STL, while not perfect, has plenty to offer. I also want locals who love the City to stay and be involved and have a voice.
As an aside, I’m really tired of people who don’t live in the City criticizing the city and neighborhoods in which own a home/spend my time in. Anyone who can compare Southampton to a neighborhood on decline loses all credibility in my mind.
You can’t look at Southampton area near St. Louis Hills and say that neighborhood is typical of Southamption! The area near Kingshighway scary. And every year the problems will continue to move west. Don’t believe me? Drive Chippewa west of Kingshighway, all the way INTO St. Louis Hills. Scary! All the rentals along Chippewa, filled with “two families of familiars” doesn’t do anything to improve the image. Right now everything two blocks west of Brannon still looks decent, but be cautious about spending much time along Kingshighway after dark. And be cautious about next year’s surprises.
TEG, you sure you’re not moonlighting here from your expert perch as a conservative commentator on Fox News? ‘Cause you’ve got that gig down solid! What is the “scary” on Chippewa you’re pedaling? Black people? What does “two families of familiars” mean? Sounds like code speak. Oh, I get it. You’re one of those people freed from city residency and now knocking your employer, the City of St. Louis. Is that it?
What’s scary on Chippewa? Boarded up windows, falling gutters and fascias, a front porch propped up with 4 x 4s, broken/cracked glass, crap stored along-side houses, overstuffed furniture on front porches, screen doors falling off hinges, aluminum foil on the windows, weeds growing up to the tops of porch rail parapets, to name a few items I noticed last week when I drove by.
“Families of Familiars” isn’t code-speak. It’s a condition that exists when 1 family signs the lease, then another family moves in to co-habitate. Combined, in one case, both families contribute 6 adults, 9 kids to the block, 4 cars and countless scooters, tricycles, plastic basketball goals, dolls, buggies left overnight all over the sidewalks, terrace, terraces of neighbors, in the street gutters,etc. I have a friend who still lives on the 5300 block of Chippewa, and she sees it first hand. When you live on the block, see what’s going on, who’s entering and exiting the houses, who’s playing outside and on the porches during the day and early evenings, it doesn’t take long to figure out what’s going on in some of those houses.. The City investigates, but officials there are not allowed to enter the premises to do a thorough inspection–can’t prove it, so they have to move on.
This isn’t the Southampton of even 10 years ago. It’s NSL in 1956, when similar conditions started to show up in that area. And MY POINT was that something has to be done about the decline in Southampton. Otherwise, whatever went wrong in NSL will likely also go wrong in SSL. All things being equal, IF IT HAPPENED IN NSL, WHY WOULD SSL NOT SUFFER A SIMILAR FATE? What has changed? Minimum building standards and occupancy codes are ON THE BOOKS at City Hall. Why aren’t they being enforced? Do you think that somehow this corrosion will stop on its own? Slowly it will destroy SSL, just as it did in NSL.
I’m not “pedaling” anything. I grew up in the neighborhood, 8 or so blocks south. Many happy memories. After college, I moved on. My parents were forced out almost 9 years ago when our home was robbed when my mother was sleeping upstairs alone. Could have happened anywhere, I know. But it didn’t happen “anywhere”; it happened 15 feet from my mother’s bed! I’M SIMPLY TRYING TO BRING ATTENTION TO THE DECLINE THAT I’VE NOTICED, HOPING THAT THE CITY WILL PAY ATTENTION TO THE CODE AND PROPERTY MAINTENANCE VIOLATIONS.
No, I won’t move back. Why? Because I think the area is gone. I have no confidence in the city’s enforcement division, and I regretfully think it’s a simple matter of time before all of what we now recognize as really BAD in NSL extends all the way south to Holly Hills.
No, I am not a City employee. I own my own business.
You do know that areas east of Southampton, on both sides of Grand, are doing quite well, with property values far in excess of the average in Southampton, and a diverse mix of people. How does your theory explain that?
Oh, I don’t know….! I guess I’ll just say that if you are blind to the obvious problems of both communities and if you aren’t pestering City Hall every week about the flagrant violations of building codes that are common to both areas…..then I suppose you’re “one of them” and that these obvious signs of decline meet with your level of expectation. It’s just not good enough for me, because a significant number of residents obviously don’t respect themselves or their neighbors (neighborhood) enough to pick up that old lamp that’s been lying alongside the house over the entire winter, or replace a gutter that’s hanging 45 degrees off the side of the roof fascia! I would like to think I am wrong. But leaving that neighborhood for my family AND ME was more than taking a favorite jacket off for the last time and throwing it in the trash. Frankly, especially for my parents, it was like removing a layer of skin! My parents sold out (as you suggest) 9 years ago and moved to Clayton. My mother no longer loves where she lives. She loved Southampton for the first 33 years she lived there. She says that now, though, she feels safe again. I have no agenda. Just a lot of concern about the neighborhood, both sides of Kingshighway.
I’m not sure choosing a streetcar route without a viable city plan makes sense. The design opportunities in this area are endless. This can mean new public spaces that collect transit for instance.
I can remember when people though I was crazy moving to Soulard in the seventies. Things can and will change fast. Behind every conversation about urban planning and design is the specter of oil, climate change and all of the other elements that will make the suburbs the slums of tomorrow.
One final comment about McKee. I am guessing he will produce a plan with a few “highly visible” urban strategies that will distract from the underlying fact the plan will be suburban light and structurally auto centric.
To me it is clear at this point that the powers to be who make these decisions supposedly in the public interest either don’t have a clue what they are doing or something more nefarious is going on.
The question I would ask is what would a viable city plan for the Northside look like? A plan that would include streetcars and many other urban design features that point towards success is certainly possible. (Where is that plan?, It is what Judge Dierker was asking)
It is not like this should be a big mystery, city after city does a better job of city design and planning than St. Louis.
“The question I would ask is what would a viable city plan for the Northside look like?” A plan that was bottom up, not top-down.
While I agree that a bottom up approach is needed, the ideas have to be put forth for discussion as Steve is doing here. Without ideas for public discussion it doesn’t matter what is bottom or top.
For example, just to focus on streetcar line possibilities. The lines should be integrated into a system that allows efficient movement, an identifiable system that is easy to get around,with frequent stops and compliments walkability in both neighborhoods and central business districts.
The potential for land development is not the first concern. Besides if you don’t focus on building transit with a supporting physical city environment of public spaces, enhanced connectivity and so on, you may in fact find that derelict streetcar line ends up the looking just as derelict in twenty years.(A perfect example of this is the moribund state of TOD development around metro stations after 20 yrs)
Getting around town should be it, it should be the main goal. Great transit is central to the success of the city. And the form of the city can enhance transit.
A discussion of the various ways this can happen is not in the public realm.
The only real reason for building a streetcar line along this route is the politics of “equity”. Other corridors offer both better ridership and better development opportunities. If we were really smart, we’d be looking at less expensive solutions that deliver more “bang for the buck”, things like enhanced bus service or BRT, so that better service could be provided well beyond St. Louis Avenue, out into the county.
Denver’s looking at three alternatives to improve service along one of its busiest bus routes, and these three videos do a great job of highlighting the differences between modes. As with anything, there aretradeoffs regarding cost – a better bus will cost significantly less than a modern streetcar, so it boils down to how much territory do you cover for X number of dollars (or do you just find more money to “do it right”?)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0xThvUxBJY&feature=youtu.be
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tvB_3WDhMU&feature=youtu.be
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ahJFBhNbMg&feature=youtu.be
http://www.denvergov.org/infrastructure/DenverPublicWorksPolicyandPlanning/CurrentProjects/EastColfaxMobility/tabid/442752/Default.aspx
JZ, good links, Denver demonstrates innovative solutions. While I agree that bus lines are possible solutions, as indicated in the videos there is a place for streetcars.
The idea of “branded” lines is one aspect and reminds me of the double decker buses in London, There is also a need for a “branded” city transit environment. ie, I’ll meet you at the Water Tower Stop on North Grand (the Water Tower stop is of course full of amenities, coffee shops, walkable neighborhoods and commercial activity)
It looks Denver is doing a good job. It at least seems to be experimenting and looking for solutions vs St. Louis where Paul McKee buys policy and city planning from city government who allow him carte blanche with no citizen input.
So the questions I have for you JZ is how does Denver handle integration of the physical city environment with transit?
Also how are the public interactions, presentation of ideas and so on, including media involvement different than St. Louis?
There are many things that can be discussed. Really the main question is how Denver handles public dialogue about these projects. What options are presented to the public?
The three biggest differences are that their Regional Transportation District (RTD) is governed by a board elected directly by the voters, not appointed, like here, RTD is structured as a quasi-governmental agency, with the ability to set its own budget and priorities in a large service area, funded by a dedicated sales tax, and RTD works closely with jurisdictions (Denver, Aurora, Littleton, Boulder, etc) that “get” and embrace public transit. Taken together, the public perception, and thus the embrace, of public transit is higher and greater. Combine that with continued growth, in both the city center and suburban employment centers, that has driven up land values, which, in turn, makes denser, infill development both financially feasible and the better solution than typical suburban sprawl / urban disinvestment, and the synergy is much better. It all boils down to leadership combined with a better economy and a more eco-oriented, younger-thinking mindset. As for public dialogue, there’s an expectation that it should happen, so it does.
This is helpful information, but what does the public involvement look like? Expectations are one thing, but if there is little knowledge of what is going on, as in the case of McKee’s Northside project, who, along with city government has turned a deaf ear to any suggestion of public transparency including a verdict by Judge Dierker, saying city planning is inadequate.
The current situation makes dialogue impossible, yet there is an expectation that discussion should occur here in St. Louis as well as in Denver. (Notice we cannot discuss Steve’s proposed routes within the context of a Northside Plan by McKee)
I guess the question remains. What other mechanisms of public involvement are in place, or is it simply a matter that Denver elites are benevolent dictators?
San Francisco has a proactive urban planning process for instance, anything comparable in Denver?
The other big difference in Denver is that registered neighborhood organizations (RNO’s) have a defined status in city ordinances*, one that REQUIRES that city departments notify them of certain activities (zoning changes, planning initiatives, etc.), which, in turn, gives them enhanced status before City Council and gives interested residents both the information and the forum to be involved in many planning and transportation decisions. Yes, part of it is cultural and part of it is legal, but, in total, it’s a much more open process. Here, the role of RNO’s appears to be largely replaced by our small wards and our multiple aldermen. The downside, if there is one, is simply in “who you know” – if you’re part of “your” alderman’s inner circle, you’re a part of the process; if you’re “on the outside looking in”, in most wards, good luck – the best you can expect is lip service, if that. Changing that will require both a fundamental change in mindset and some significant legal changes. It will also require empowering city staff to a degree that doesn’t seem possible here – in Denver, City Council members actually listen to and defer to professional expertise!
*http://www.progressnowcolorado.org/blog/2006/03/CLfW.html
http://www.denvergov.org/YourNeighborhood/RegisteredNeighborhoodOrganizations/tabid/432158/Default.aspx
http://www.denverinc.org/about-us/
You illustrate why Denver innovates while St Louis falls into the dark ages. Speaking of St. Louis wards, I know a Northside ward that a community organization was put out of business because they did not have the correct political views. It is a fact St. Louis Aldermen control the budgets of many neighborhood organizations,
Do you know how these “independent” Denver neighborhood associations are funded? What you describe sounds like an excellent structure for public involvement. Especially when compared to the feudal fiefdoms of St. Louis.
They’re typically funded by low, annual, voluntary dues ($10-$20) and rely on the pro bono, work of many volunteers. The key component is open communication, the biggest challenge is making people aware of a group’s existence, absent a “big issue” in the neighborhood – a contentious rezoning, a problem liquor license. a new commercial development. It’s a cliche, but information is power. And by forcing communication among residents, city staff and elected officials, residents are empowered – city business doesn’t happen under an apparent cloud of secrecy. I’d also argue that our small wards are a part of the problem here – our aldermen assume that they “know” what their constituents want. In Denver, with their five-times-larger council districts (56,000 constituents there, versus 11,350 per ward here), the council members rely more on neighborhood organizations to communicate with and get a feel on local concerns, again, empowering these grassroots organizations. Is it perfect? No – you still get the people you elect, but at least the framework encourages more dialogue than we typically see here.